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E or A-mount+adapter for FF video?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote windhorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: E or A-mount+adapter for FF video?
    Posted: 16 April 2017 at 22:26
Would like to hear from anyone who has tried using A-mount lenses via LEA adapter or APS-C lenses via a turbo adapter to shoot video in Super35 format on an E-mount full frame body like the A7S, A7SII, A7RII.

I am just trying to wrap my head around how to shoot video with the A7RII and suddenly realized much to my consternation that the very fine Canon L lenses that I use for shooting stills via a Metabones smart adapter are noisy and slower to focus than FE lenses when it comes to video. But FE lenses are more expensive. Hence my question.

Seems like Super35 crop mode is the best format for video so that opens up the possibility of using APS-C E-mount lenses or A-mount lenses with a turbo adapter instead of a full frame FE lens. Just not sure if they work as good or suffer from the same kinds of problems as the Canon lenses do when it comes to video?   
 



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Bob J View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bob J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2017 at 00:27
My understanding is that you don't use APS-C lenses with a turbo adapter, you use full-frame lenses with a turbo adapter to give an APS-C sized image circle on APS-C sized sensors.

Super 35 is around the size of APS-C so a turbo adapter might well work, but not with an APS-C lens, but in that case an APS-C camera would probably be more suitable than an A7 variant.

The noise from an A-Mount lens will be very dependent on the focus technology, SSM should be pretty much silent, slot-drive will be noisy, SAM somewhere in between.

Accuracy of focus is likely to be dependent on the ability of the camera to know how suitable the lens being used is for PDAF (and on from that - how good the lens is for PDAF) - I'm guessing that would be the opportunity for A mount via an adapter to be faster focusing than the Canon lenses (which the camera will not know anything about), but does not mean that they would be as I think that would vary from one legacy lens design to another (according to how tele-centric they were).

Sorry this reply is a bit vague, apologies if it is not helpful..



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Post Options Post Options   Quote windhorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2017 at 02:40
Thanks Bob for sharing your thoughts that are very helpful, particularly about the different focus technologies. These days even the smallest bits of kit are quite complicated and it seems necessary to look into every aspect of an item before making any decision in order to avoid getting too many fingers burnt - though a little bit of scorching seems to be inevitable.

Who would have thought the best video from the A7RII would be from shooting in crop mode, or that auto AF that used to be standard on every consumer camcorder would only work with OEM lenses, or that one cannot turn on autofocus and focus peaking at the same time... lots to learn and that fortunately can be quite exciting.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote nandbytes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2017 at 08:08
turbo adapter a.k.a speed booster does exactly what the names says. It boosts the speed of the lens by one stop, reduced the focal length (~0.71x) and also reduced the image circle to fit an APS-C sensor (this is in context of FF and APS-C, you can get speed boosters to make APS-C/FF lenses have image circle for m43).

The point being if you use a FF 35mm f2 lens on APS-C sensor with a speed booster, after factoring in the APS-C crop factor you still get the 35mm f2 on APS-C.

Speed boosters are expensive and don't make financial sense to buy one, especially for the metabones one with AF support for canon glass. I got an used A7 for the price of a speed booster.

As for video on A7RII I used the SEL 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6. It works quite nicely.

Unless you use LA-EA4 which has its own focusing module or MC-11 with compatible sigma lenses which tries to emulate native lenses, I don't think you get AF(-C) in video with another of the other adapter+lens combinations.

MOD EDIT: ...has its only focusing module>has its own focusing module

Edited by stiuskr - 17 April 2017 at 12:29
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rssweetman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2017 at 14:01
Originally posted by nandbytes nandbytes wrote:



"Speed boosters are expensive and don't make financial sense to buy one, especially for the metabones one with AF support for canon glass. I got an used A7 for the price of a speed booster."


I'm not sure I entirely agree. In my continuing consideration of 'best' digital back for the A-mount 135mm STF I've often considered whether using a speedbooster on an e-mount APS-C body wouldn't be more financially prudent than using the same lens on an FF e-mount body. You'd be using a more expensive adapter on a cheaper body but the variables can pan out.

I'd say - especially for video which is often as not manual focus anyway - they do actually make a lot of sense to get the approximately same "perspective" from the lens.

I HADN'T however appreciated that newer metabones speed boosters now also allow autofocus, so thanks for alerting me to this.

R





Edited by Micholand - 20 April 2017 at 17:52
Sony: A58, A580, A900, A99 135mm STF, 50 f1.4, 18-55 3.5+
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Post Options Post Options   Quote windhorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2017 at 04:14
I HADN'T however appreciated that newer metabones speed boosters now also allow autofocus

For some time I have been using the A7II with Metabones II smart adapter and 24mm Canon L lens as well as 2 FE lenses for photography and do not notice much difference between the way they function for example when it comes to autofocus.

But when I started to do same with video I found differences that I had not noticed before for example the noise the Canon L lens makes when focussing that is not an issue for my type of photography but a real deal breaker for video.

When I started to research APS-C lenses with this in mind a few days ago I found that most legacy Sony lenses also make some if not a lot of noise though others donīt.

So like everything else you really get something you didn't have before when you spend a bucketful of dollars on fancy new gear but there is also usually some catch related to the functionality that you may only find out about when you start using it - and that is where expert advice from experienced users on forums like this one are a tremendous help.

Edited by windhorse - 19 April 2017 at 04:20
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote QuietOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2017 at 05:07
Originally posted by Bob J Bob J wrote:

The noise from an A-Mount lens will be very dependent on the focus technology, SSM should be pretty much silent, slot-drive will be noisy, SAM somewhere in between.

Accuracy of focus is likely to be dependent on the ability of the camera to know how suitable the lens being used is for PDAF (and on from that - how good the lens is for PDAF) - I'm guessing that would be the opportunity for A mount via an adapter to be faster focusing than the Canon lenses (which the camera will not know anything about), but does not mean that they would be as I think that would vary from one legacy lens design to another (according to how tele-centric they were)

Except the 18-135 SAM is quieter and faster than the 16-50 SSM. i can't find anyone who has tried the former on an A6300 or A6500 using the LA-EA1 or 3.

Canon STM lenses are designed for mirrorless AF. Nikon has added AF-P lenses that are similar.

Better AF motors are a good reason for getting E mount lenses.

Edited by QuietOC - 19 April 2017 at 05:12
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Sony A5000 LA-EA1 16/2.8 20/2.8, 16-50PZ
Minolta Maxxum 70 24/2.8 28/2.8 50/1.7 85/2.8 100M 135/2.8 100-300D
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Post Options Post Options   Quote artuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2017 at 05:39
Simple answer get E mount lenses for E mount cameras.

A mount lenses are from what I understand not entirely suited to video work due to AF speed and possible noise (assuming yoi are using AF?)

Canon lenses with an adapter I doubt will be good for video focusing. Even still photographers' report a whole host of issues with different lenses and adapters.

For serious video most shoot manual focus, in which case you can use whatever you want or even try video e mount lenses from third parties such as Rokinon etc.

I've never really understood why people buy E mount cameras then "complain" about performance when using other mount lenses (no offence,not directly aimed at anyone in this discussion). If people like Canon lenses, buy a Canon camera. If they don't like Canon cameras (and I don't blame them!) sell the Canon system and buy something else. Using different brands together is a good stop gap during transition between systems but doesn't make sense if one then complains about AF speed etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote windhorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2017 at 05:52
Originally posted by artuk artuk wrote:

Using different brands together is a good stop gap during transition between systems but doesn't make sense if one then complains about AF speed etc.


New Sony lenses definitely work best with new Sony cameras - even though one of the selling points of the Sony mirrorless line used to be that it could be used with all sorts of legacy lenses. That was a very smart point for Sony to make in the early days of E-mount full frame when they were trying to sell the A7 but had very few FE lenses. Since then that has changed with the release of more FE lenses and more attention being given to video than in the old days.

Edited by windhorse - 19 April 2017 at 06:09
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2017 at 06:09
Originally posted by artuk artuk wrote:

A mount lenses are from what I understand not entirely suited to video work due to AF speed ...

A-mount lenses focus so fast on A-mount cameras that Sony intentionally slows them down for video AF. That can be considered either a good thing or a bad thing depending on whether you prefer sudden focus changes or more gradual focus changes. I don't know how fast they move for E-mount video.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote nandbytes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2017 at 08:11
Originally posted by Rssweetman Rssweetman wrote:


I'm not sure I entirely agree. In my continuing consideration of 'best' digital back for the A-mount 135mm STF I've often considered whether using a speedbooster on an e-mount APS-C body wouldn't be more financially prudent than using the same lens on an FF e-mount body. You'd be using a more expensive adapter on a cheaper body but the variables can pan out.

I'd say - especially for video which is often as not manual focus anyway - they do actually make a lot of sense to get the approximately same "perspective" from the lens.

I HADN'T however appreciated that newer metabones speed boosters now also allow autofocus, so thanks for alerting me to this.

R


Well let's see... A metabones speedbooster ultra is $479 for a-mount to e-mount. These days Sony A7 is selling for like $750? A6000 costs more than $270. Not to mention you don't get any EXIF or AF or proper aperture control with a-mount speed booster (you only get that with canon EF lenses).

So you might as well buy an A7 and have proper FF with no glass in between impacting IQ, focal length (you get 1.07x crop with speedboosters, not exact 1.0x) and lose EXIF.
Not to mention of you get A7II you'll get 5-axis IBIS instead of no IBIS with A6000/6300. Yes you could get A6500 but that once again will work out more expensive and you'll get only 3-axis IBIS due to no electronic contacts.

Of course you can get cheaper speedboosters especially for legacy lenses and they do work nicely​ in centre but mid-frame to corners are no good. It's fun to play with but not a serious option IMO.

Edit, p.s. since you are in UK like me these prices for speedboosters​ will be even more thanks to VAT and good ol' democracy (i.e. Brexit)

Edited by nandbytes - 19 April 2017 at 08:18
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rssweetman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 14:12
[/QUOTE]

Well let's see... A metabones speedbooster ultra is $479 for a-mount to e-mount. These days Sony A7 is selling for like $750? A6000 costs more than $270. Not to mention you don't get any EXIF or AF or proper aperture control with a-mount speed booster (you only get that with canon EF lenses).

So you might as well buy an A7 and have proper FF with no glass in between impacting IQ, focal length (you get 1.07x crop with speedboosters, not exact 1.0x) and lose EXIF.
Not to mention of you get A7II you'll get 5-axis IBIS instead of no IBIS with A6000/6300. Yes you could get A6500 but that once again will work out more expensive and you'll get only 3-axis IBIS due to no electronic contacts.

Of course you can get cheaper speedboosters especially for legacy lenses and they do work nicely​ in centre but mid-frame to corners are no good. It's fun to play with but not a serious option IMO.
[/QUOTE]

I was thinking more A6500 @ £1,300 plus SB at say £450 vs A99ii/A7Rii at £3200-ish on account of the pixel density being closer (ie ~18mp APS-C with 42mp) but you make a good point.

I never completed the exercise and came to a final conclusion because adding in variables like 24mp on Full-frame vs 24mp APS-C made my head hurt! :)

PS As to your point about democracy, there's a very compelling argument that the US and UK politics were/are particularly "vulnerable to influence" owing to the primacy of English as a second language worldwide, including amongst competitors and our relatively free and open media. It's then posited that *potentially* other Western democracies might be somewhat less "vulnerable" where English is NOT the major language of discourse and where media is more "traditional"...ie that most countries can only afford SO many foreign language case officers/front companies in the first place...
Sony: A58, A580, A900, A99 135mm STF, 50 f1.4, 18-55 3.5+
Minolta: 100 2.8 Soft Focus, 85 f1.4, Beercan 70-210 f4, 35-70 f4, 28 f2.8, 24 f2.8, 50 f1.7
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Post Options Post Options   Quote windhorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 16:40
Taking the easy way out, I ended up getting a 20mm Sony SEL20F28 pancake lens that works very fine for video with the A7RII in Super35 crop mode.

So now all I have to do is figure out what mode, audio, and focus settings to select that as you can see here I am finding to be quite a challenge. Lots to learn!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote nandbytes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 17:21
Originally posted by Rssweetman Rssweetman wrote:



I was thinking more A6500 @ £1,300 plus SB at say £450 vs A99ii/A7Rii at £3200-ish on account of the pixel density being closer (ie ~18mp APS-C with 42mp) but you make a good point.

I never completed the exercise and came to a final conclusion because adding in variables like 24mp on Full-frame vs 24mp APS-C made my head hurt! :)


Why does pixel density matter especially when your idea is to get a 24mp image at 135mm FoV. You will get the same FoV and pixel count on A6500+speed booster+135mm vs. A7ii+135mm. But you will get better image quality out the later combination.
Also A7RII is £2500 now (basically pre-brexit price)
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