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A99 wl flash delay

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sybersitizen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 January 2013 at 04:21
Originally posted by Kiklop Kiklop wrote:

Sony Announces the New DWZ Series of Digital Wireless Technology

But knowing Sony, I refuse to plug my Parker Fly into something that might cause a delayed response - deal breaker!
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Photosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 January 2013 at 05:06
Originally posted by Peekayoh Peekayoh wrote:

...so simply engage FEL lock and snap away...


I hear ya. It's just a jiggy way of doing things. And I know this sounds stupid, but I'm trying to remove as many button pushes from my life as possible. I'm just being stubborn for stubborn's sake, finding a way to express frustration about the new flash shoe in as many ways as possible, grumpy old man that I am you know.

Alas, the scales in favor of a99 are really beginning to outweigh the sales against. I'm sure to be getting out with one when work lightens up and I can take the time to learn the camera. It will be the first camera in a long time that requires me to read a book. That's probably the root of most of my discord.

I've come to the conclusion, after many wallet tugging temptations, that the D800 doesn't bring that much extra to the resolution game to justify trading. But the a99 does bring much extra to the functionality game, and there are features on it that I'm beginning to wanderlust for.

Seeing the a99 vs D800/E was not a revolutionary jump. But seeing the D800/E vs the Pentax 645D and Phase One Mamiya was indeed a revolutionary jump. So I think my plan is set to get a99 for comfort shooting, and then wait a while to investigate medium format further for art pursuits. Perhaps by that time Sony will have gamed up their MP for further consideration. Surely the newly announced a77 is foretelling of a future a99 update as well, by mid 2014 perhaps? We'll see. But knowing that Sony knows about the flash issues, and realizing they got the a99 more right from the start than D800/5DMKII, my feelings for staying with Alpha have been reinforced and stabilized for the foreseeable future.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peekayoh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 January 2013 at 00:44
Ahhh! That's nice to know.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peekayoh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 January 2013 at 01:01
Originally posted by vbpholaw vbpholaw wrote:

.... How about at a wedding, with remote flashes used to light the dance floor, and the subject distance is not constant? This would apply whether the wirelessly triggered flashes are providing background or main light. ...
Like I said before, I wouldn't be using the Sony system flash to trigger the remotes anyway, I'd be using the more reliable radio triggers (Pixel King). Clearly this would be a problem if you are reliant on the system optical triggering.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote vbpholaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 January 2013 at 06:36
Originally posted by Peekayoh Peekayoh wrote:

Originally posted by vbpholaw vbpholaw wrote:

.... How about at a wedding, with remote flashes used to light the dance floor, and the subject distance is not constant? This would apply whether the wirelessly triggered flashes are providing background or main light. ...
Like I said before, I wouldn't be using the Sony system flash to trigger the remotes anyway, I'd be using the more reliable radio triggers (Pixel King). Clearly this would be a problem if you are reliant on the system optical triggering.


I understood your point, but mine was a situation where the subject distance is not remaining constant, so use of the radio triggers wouldn't work unless they also provide TTL control. Not sure the Pixel Kings do that with the A99 (I simply forget what's been written about them in this or other threads). But, not everyone has access to radio-based wireless triggers with TTL control, and my point was simply to provide an example of a situation for which FEL would not be a viable option for the Sony wireless flash system because of the changing subject distance, which you acknowledge, which is sort of the whole point of this thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote OldClicker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 January 2013 at 15:27
I am amazed that the IR system with a couple of Sony flashes is commonly used for professional studio work on the level of cover photos for fashion magazines. I bet the Sony engineers/designers would be also.
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Xentrax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2013 at 07:21
Actually 1/2 second delay is better than 200ms delay because people will have plenty of time to open their eyes after blinking during preflash.


There were no issues like wireless delay (and no preflash at all) with cheap film cameras like Dynax 5. If I recall correctly that was about $300 in retail. TTL-OTF was invented like 15, 20 years ago?

With Full HD 60 fps videoshooting support already available in sensors it should not be so hard to control flash exposure in real time. This will fix the root of this issue altogether, and, more importantly, there will be no preflash (delay/blinking eyes) and no guesswork by the camera to predict full flash exposure using preflash (wrong exposure).

Currently, even normal flash operation is rarely used by "prosumers", so flash performance is not on Sony's priority list.

In my opinion, flash performance is very important. Artificial light (including flash) is the second most important tool in the "hands" of photograher after natural light (images heavily edited in photoshop is not photgraphy for me). Still, flash is the only thing that works worse in modern top digital cameras than in cheap film cameras 15 years ago.

I wouid like consumers considered flash important. Unfortunately, this will never happen. And knowing that pros use N and C, I am prepared to see even worse flash performance in future Sony cameras.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote IanL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2013 at 09:07
Originally posted by Xentrax Xentrax wrote:


With Full HD 60 fps videoshooting support already available in sensors it should not be so hard to control flash exposure in real time.


Really? I reckon it's at least 100 times harder than video. It's not just about reading the sensor fast, you also have to analyse the frame for correct exposure repeatedly during the exposure whilst retaining the data, and then get the message to the flashes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ArnikFFM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2013 at 09:08
I am missing the "Thumbs Up" or "Like" button a lot here.

Reading all those issues, it really gets me thinking about some changes, though.

There must be a more "Pro" way to work around it. Thinking of just buying some studio equipment. Honestly, I never liked these IR led flash systems and never considered those, but ....

Don't understand why Somy neglects so many niches .....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 3.0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2013 at 10:21
Originally posted by Xentrax Xentrax wrote:



Currently, even normal flash operation is rarely used by "prosumers", so flash performance is not on Sony's priority list.

I wouid like consumers considered flash important. Unfortunately, this will never happen. And knowing that pros use N and C, I am prepared to see even worse flash performance in future Sony cameras.




Really? I wager every working full-time or part-time wedding/event photographer is using at least one flash. There's no way you would know with any certainty what is or isn't on Sony's priority list.

I can name 3 pros off the top of my head shooting Sony, one of whom Frank Doorhof switched from Canon 5D MIII.
Kirk Tuck has published at least half dozen books and shoots Sony religiously.
Mathew Jordan Smith who's shot Oprah, Tyra Banks and for numerous fashion magazines shoots with an a900 to this day.

Would I prefer Nikons flash system to Sonys? Sure. Can I make Sony's work for my work? Yep.

In fact I love the HVL-F60M with the 1200 Lux LED video light, clearly Sony is not only thinking about their flash system(by changing hotshoe) but also expanding it's ability. They bought Minolta just over 6 years ago you think it's an easy transition for a company to integrate into a new business, while developing new technologies and not have delays? Get real.

FYI, for the other posters here thinking about radio slaves.

I spent $40 on a no-name ebay brand, used it with the adapter on my a99 and I can sync 1/200th of a second. I have the photos and exif data to prove it. I certainly hope Sony fixes the firmware so it can go the full 250th, but as far as I'm concerned 1/200 is just fine for studio, in fact most studio shooters start with 1/125th and adjust strobes not shutter for exposure. Canons new 6D FF can't even do above 1/160th and I recall the D600 can't go above 1/200th natively either.


Edited by 3.0 - 19 January 2013 at 10:25
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 3.0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2013 at 10:28
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Xentrax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2013 at 10:36
OK. If you need technical discussion. When capturing video, camera most probably does not downsample in the CMOS but captures all 24M green, red and blue pixels from the sensor 60 times per second, performs electronic stabilization, compresses everything and writes to the flash card; simultaneously it performs continuous hybrid AF.

All of this does not happen during static shot. For controlling exposure during shot you better off with special sensor where at least 12x8 green pixels do not have green filters. As some pixels can be defective, sensor may need to have 96*2 pixels and good pixels are selected at the factory. This is only 0.0016% of 12M green pixels in 24M sensor, and actually these 192 "gray" pixels still can be used to generate final image.

Considering that camera can analyze 24M pixels 60 times per second, I think it can easily analyze just 0.0008% of that amount with some weighted average algorithm, say, 600 times per second. And you don't have remember all previous values to calculate next average over series of measurements.

If not, special IC in CMOS sensor can itself compute weighted average over theses 96 light pixels, compare with some trigger value, provided by firmware depending on the ambient lighting, and only output flash off signal on some wire.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mikey2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2013 at 11:08
3.0 thanks for the link to the product.   Howeer, I think maybe you have yor threads mixed up - these triggers are not TTL and not for the built in Sony wireless/optical system. I have something similar and they do indeed work in manual mode flash setups and only sync up to 1/200.

There is another thread going about sync speed...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peekayoh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2013 at 12:38
Originally posted by vbpholaw vbpholaw wrote:

Originally posted by Peekayoh Peekayoh wrote:

Originally posted by vbpholaw vbpholaw wrote:

.... How about at a wedding, with remote flashes used to light the dance floor, and the subject distance is not constant? This would apply whether the wirelessly triggered flashes are providing background or main light. ...
Like I said before, I wouldn't be using the Sony system flash to trigger the remotes anyway, I'd be using the more reliable radio triggers (Pixel King). Clearly this would be a problem if you are reliant on the system optical triggering.


I understood your point, but mine was a situation where the subject distance is not remaining constant, so use of the radio triggers wouldn't work unless they also provide TTL control. Not sure the Pixel Kings do that with the A99 (I simply forget what's been written about them in this or other threads). But, not everyone has access to radio-based wireless triggers with TTL control, and my point was simply to provide an example of a situation for which FEL would not be a viable option for the Sony wireless flash system because of the changing subject distance, which you acknowledge, which is sort of the whole point of this thread.
Mark, the Pixel Kings will indeed TTL and fire two more groups of remote manual flash so will do what you require although it's not something I'd be doing in that situation but, you're right, the inbuilt system would not cope.

The Pixel Kings are not yet perfect because they overexpose in HSS mode so the Manufacturer has more work to do.
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