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SIGMA world view ?????

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Steve-S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2017 at 06:34
Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

Originally posted by Steve-S Steve-S wrote:

Really... what could Sony MAKE (at a reasonable price-point) that the public would BUY (in enough volume to justify the design-time & production-run)?

Not much at all because the A-mount user base is now too small, and in all probability still shrinking. The same question - and the same answer - applies to other lensmakers. Hence there is a choice of either looking to some other system for fulfillment or accepting the reality of what A-mount is today and carrying on regardless. I'm one of the carry-on-ers.


Well, some lenses would sell reasonably, if those slots were unfilled and lenses to fill them would come out new: any of the "f/2.8 pro trio" of 16-35 / 24-70 / 70-200; "f/1.4 prime duo" of 50 / 85 would certainly sell; smaller wide primes (e.g. 24 & 35); etc.

But all the mainstream needs -- and many of the specialist needs -- are already filled.

The question is: what lenses does A-Mount still "need?" Other than "niche" lenses that sell in tiny quantities even for the "Big Boys".

This is why the lack of new A-Mount lenses doesn't bother me as much as it used to...
Alpha: a77+7000; SAL 18135, SAL1870, MinO50/1.7, MinO75-300, Tam90/2.8, Smyg85/1.4, others.
SR(MC/MD): XD-11, XK+AEhead Min50/1.7&1.4, Tam70-150/3.5, Viv35/2.8, Viv2xTC
 



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sybersitizen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2017 at 06:54
Originally posted by Steve-S Steve-S wrote:

The question is: what lenses does A-Mount still "need?" Other than "niche" lenses that sell in tiny quantities even for the "Big Boys".

Depends on who you ask ... but it doesn't matter 'cuz there's almost no chance of getting them now.
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Stephen.brown23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stephen.brown23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2017 at 13:41
I have just in this past year upgraded most of my lenses , as you want to do more things like the Pros eg Bokah so you need better kit, I have 2 Sony APS-C Bodies that means you have the x1.5 crop factor. Until about 2 years ago I never even realized the Crop factor affected the DOF that much.

So earlier this year I recycled some of my Celestron Telescope Lenses and CCDs on eBay to buy some better lenses. Which I did thinking of the future, a possible switch to full frame. So I got a second hand Sigma 17-50 f2.8 for APS-C work, a new Tamron 28-75 f2.8 for use with both then, a new Tamron 150-600 f5-6.3 and I was looking for a new replacement for my old Sigma 70-210 f2.8 as it is now starting to suffer from internal dust, giving problems when shooting into a bright backlights. That is when I found they are hard to find new. Looks like will have to settle for second hand.

Some may say people like me are not fully committing to Sony by using 3rd party lenses but when I buy from eBay, I always ask the seller why they are selling. Most of the time they say they are upgrading. So my money is going to Sony. Then you have the price of the Sony Pro type like the 70-200 f2.8. Sorry but I feel that if Sony wanted everyone to buy all there lenses they would make them priced to complete with the 3rd party companies. I do care about Sony as in about 5 years from now I will properly be looking for a second hand a99 mk2 on eBay. I am 60 next year and have not had permanent work since about 2012 so sorry I have to live within my limits.
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Miranda F View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2017 at 11:14
Originally posted by mirthseeker mirthseeker wrote:

I'm surprised that no-one in this thread has yet mentioned that Sigma had their reputation trashed, and re-chipped hundreds(?) of A mount lenses for free because their reverse engineering did not cater to SLT cameras when they came out. (I mention this for the newer members wanting a petition, who may not be aware of the history). Do recent developments like eye focus, full tracking, etc. work in A Mount with non-Sony lenses? Is further reverse engineering financially viable or possible?

The impression I gained from forums was that Tamron used to have access to A Mount protocols, yet I don't see reports of recent Tamron SSM lenses functioning with Sony's latest focus developments. Has Sony found a way of restricting A mounters to using newer Sony lenses only, if they want to have access to the latest developments? If so, why would other lens manufacturers invest in introducing lenses which can't (or can't economically) offer the full functions offered by newer camera bodies?

I can't answer these questions, so I'm going to go out and take pictures once the weather here has ceased being woeful.

Tamron had a close working relationship with Minolta and Sony, making some lenses for them and reportedly having paid for a licence to access their lens rom coding/etc. Sigma couldn't be bothered, reverse engineering the protocol instead and making several errors in the process which bit them on the bum later.
No loss, I thought at the time since their film era lenses were almost all pretty awful. They've made some great lenses since, of course, but their reluctance to pay for Sony data (though possibly a sound commercial decision) has left them open to further issues.

To be fair Sony hasn't helped by occasionally changing which bits of the rom data they use for different things. For example the Kenko 1.4x DGX TC works perfectly with - and shows the corrected aperture and focal length data for - every Minolta and Sony lens I've tried on it *except* the 55-300mm, and that has to be Sony's fault and not Kenko's.
A900, A58, 5d, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2017 at 11:25
Of course the question Sony has to consider is not 'which possible future lenses would sell' but 'which future items represent the best return on their limited R&D development funding'. Currently the answer to that is obviously quite a lot of things, including E-mount lenses and the RX range, but A-mount lenses would come a long way down the list.
That could change, for example if E-mount demand saturates or users prefer to get specialist non Sony lenses for it, or if there is a large-scale move back to traditional DSLRs/DSLTs, but I don't expect it.
Sony's long term game plan is probably to turn the DSLR into an all-electronic item with no moving parts at all - at which point they will have a supreme advantage over Canon and Nikon - and A mount will die completely at that point for new sales. Plenty of people will still go on using it, of course, including lots of us who just aren't prepared to pay £1000+ for a lens.
A900, A58, 5d, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stephen.brown23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2017 at 12:24
I am not against what Sony are doing putting most of their resources in to the new A7 A9, in the future my next move could be to use all my A Mount lenses with an adapter on a second hand A7 But I am surprised there is a adapter for Canon lenses. Not sure about some of those old Sigma lenses that have auto focus problems with the a77 that is why I am looking for an old a850 or a900. I think Sigma have ended the re-chipping service now, Im unsure about the second hand Sigma 17-50 f2.8 I recently acquired, it is on the Dyxum data base list as incompatible with a77 it works on my a450 and a700, So may skip the move to the new a77 a99 slt DSLRs. I do lots of Astrophotography so the translucent mirror may give me a problem it has been said that it loses about half an f: stop of light ok, not a problem in daylight but when you Auto guide your Scope you need to keep exposures as short as possible. I try to keep exposures down to about 60 seconds and stack multi frames, not sure if you can flip the mirror up with a T-mount adapter attached. So as long a Sony keep the backwards compatibility mount adapters thing going I am happy. I think there is already a T-mount adapter for the Sony E mount.
 



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sybersitizen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2017 at 17:47
Originally posted by Stephen.brown23 Stephen.brown23 wrote:

... in the future my next move could be to use all my A Mount lenses with an adapter on a second hand A7 But I am surprised there is a adapter for Canon lenses.

If you have screw-drive lenses, and you want AF, you'll be stuck with a Sony A/E-mount adapter that uses the same AF system that was introduced with the first SLT camera back in 2010. If you have motorized lenses, the outlook is somewhat better. There's another thing that people could speculate about - will there ever be a new Sony A/E-mount adapter?

The Canon adapter surprised almost everyone. It was invented by a third party company. It has been frequently improved and updated. So there's another question for speculation - will there ever be a third party A/E-mount adapter that beats the pants off of Sony's efforts?

I do lots of Astrophotography so the translucent mirror may give me a problem it has been said that it loses about half an f: stop of light ok, not a problem in daylight but when you Auto guide your Scope you need to keep exposures as short as possible. I try to keep exposures down to about 60 seconds and stack multi frames, not sure if you can flip the mirror up with a T-mount adapter attached.

The mirror cannot be flipped with anything attached to the camera. It blocks the lens mount. However, it is very easy to remove the mirror completely. With older SLTs that removes all AF functionality (which is of no importance for your purpose anyway). With the A99II, AF can still work for motorized lenses via the on-sensor PDAF system.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stephen.brown23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2017 at 19:19
Thanks for that info. Looks like I will have to go for the a99, I assumed the E/A mount adapter for the A7 had a motor to drive the Minolta AF system due to its size? I will have to do more research. It would be nice to see Sony did a full spectrum camera of a like Canon and Nikon at present I have only seen Astro mod on Canon, they remove the low pass filter and replace it with Baader filter that give you the full visible window from 400-700nm and improves the quantum efficiency most SBIG CCD Astro cameras give about 75% but most standard DSLRs give at most 50% the mod would improve sensitivity but to use the camera in daylight the sensor would have to be shimmed to auto focus and the WB balance calibrated to give the correct WB in Daylight shot.
I would not like to try that myself, here in the UK there is a company that even sell cameras ready converted.
http://cheapastrophotography.vpweb.co.uk/Available-Cameras.html

You may ask why would I need a Astro Converted DSLR. Because a DSLR full frame or Cropped APS-C have a wide FOV most Astro CCD cameras have small sensors covering small part of the sky large sensor CCD cameras like the expensive SBIGs are very expensive £8,000 or more that is why and you can only use then at night not very good in daylight. It is probably too much to expect to find one camera that does everything you need.

Sorry too much info, I am getting sidetracked again. Going back to reality of the problem, the drop in sales of the consumer camera was due to cameras on mobile phones. More pros use Canon and Nikon than use Sony, so Sony had to do soothing new to try to get the share in the market back so they developed the mirrorless systems then the A7 What is next... back to A mount?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2017 at 20:22
Originally posted by Stephen.brown23 Stephen.brown23 wrote:

I assumed the E/A mount adapter for the A7 had a motor to drive the Minolta AF system due to its size?

There are two types of A/E-mount adapters. The type that operates screw-drive lenses has a motor and an SLT mirror inside and cannot use any of the camera's AF features. The other type has no motor and no SLT mirror because it uses the camera's AF features - but only if the lens has its own motor.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Evildogsofdoom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2017 at 20:25
The Sony LA-EA4 adaptor has the motor that can drive all of the screw drive a-mount lenses. However, the PDAF system is the same as that fitted to the 2010 era SLT-55. Sony would make it a lot easier for people to migrate from A to E mount, if they sold an up-dated adaptor with the PDAF module from the A77ii and A99ii and allowed the OSPDAF to work with the module in the adaptor.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2017 at 22:37
Originally posted by Evildogsofdoom Evildogsofdoom wrote:

Sony would make it a lot easier for people to migrate from A to E mount, if they sold an up-dated adaptor with the PDAF module from the A77ii and A99ii and allowed the OSPDAF to work with the module in the adaptor.


Hear, hear!
A900, A58, 5d, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2017 at 19:54
Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

Originally posted by Steve-S Steve-S wrote:

The question is: what lenses does A-Mount still "need?" Other than "niche" lenses that sell in tiny quantities even for the "Big Boys".

Depends on who you ask ... but it doesn't matter 'cuz there's almost no chance of getting them now.


People have been bemoaning the "death of A-Mount" before now; I am entirely unconvinced either way: Sony MIGHT be on a slow-path "let them down gently" A-Mount decline, or they MIGHT be simply slowing the development in the smaller market for a while, until they fill-out the more lucrative (and less-robust) E-Mount line (which still lacks a fast/ultra-tele prime, without which the a9's obvious sports/ wildlife/ action orientation is fundamentally handicapped). No telling (at the moment) whether we have a "chance of getting them now" or not.

The modern "ILC/System-Camera" market really churns models much faster than lenses (and rightfully so, since cameras are increasingly just optic-oriented computers & subject to "Moore's Law" & that whole realm of change). Sony seems to be producing serious new A-Mount bodies at their normal rate of production, i.e. NOT on a ramp-down path (n.b. the early-NEX-era "throw a gazillion models onto the market and see what floats" seems to have been a deliberate but temporary strategy).

New lenses (genuinely-new designs, not just "mk.II" with new coatings & SSM) would be a strong indicator that Sony genuinely has a long-term future planned for A-Mount... 70-200/4, 100-300/4, 200Macro, 200/2HS, 50/1.2, 85/1.2, 105/1.4, 24mmT/S, etc etc etc.

A few of these are real "staple" lenses that many consider glaring omissions; many are "niche" lenses which are only "glaring" when you take them collectively as "Sony has none of these, CaNikon each have most/all of them" and thus make Sony appear "less serious."

===

I wrote a longish further rant about Sony innovating with lenses... and realized how OT it was. I'll post it in a new thread.
Alpha: a77+7000; SAL 18135, SAL1870, MinO50/1.7, MinO75-300, Tam90/2.8, Smyg85/1.4, others.
SR(MC/MD): XD-11, XK+AEhead Min50/1.7&1.4, Tam70-150/3.5, Viv35/2.8, Viv2xTC
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sybersitizen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2017 at 20:41
Originally posted by Steve-S Steve-S wrote:

Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

Originally posted by Steve-S Steve-S wrote:

The question is: what lenses does A-Mount still "need?" Other than "niche" lenses that sell in tiny quantities even for the "Big Boys".

Depends on who you ask ... but it doesn't matter 'cuz there's almost no chance of getting them now.

People have been bemoaning the "death of A-Mount" before now ...

Not me. I see all the new A-mount cameras everyone else sees, and new flashes and accessories for them too (though probably only because those flashes and accessories are directly compatible with E-mount). What I don't see - and increasingly don't expect to see - are new A-mount lenses.
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Stephen.brown23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stephen.brown23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2017 at 21:08
Knowing what to do next, After learning some if not most of my Minolta AF and Sony A mount lenses will not fully work on the A7 type system with the adapter and probably some with the slt a77 mk2 as well, I have finally just made the decision to stand still to see what Sony do next. By that I mean keep with the old Sony A mount, As I have just bid on a Sony a850 on eBay and won so will now from this day save my money for the future. I think I will get through with what I have and think I will keep my a700 and the Sigma 17-50 f2.8 for backup. Let us hope some 3rd party company makes an adapter for the E mount A7 that uses all the old lenses with Auto focus, If they do it will be worth its weight in gold.
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