Sony A800 and A1000

Thomas,

I wasn't actually aware of any pure b&w/IR full frame digital backs for the Hassy. ???

I could (and still sometimes do) use b&w / ir on my Pentax 67II (film) based system, so i appreciate the medium format sensibility. However, let's be frank, optical options, mobility, and flexibility are severely restricted on mf compared to 35mm. And let's not forget about the cost.

This is why i said what i said. 2-3 yrs ago, if i posted some 24mp images on pro photo forums and said i wish i wanted that in a $2700 camera, how many people would ridicule that?

How many?

That's my point. Don't wish for 3-4 yr old design cameras done better - wish for something that will stand out favorably in the competitive mkt 3 yrs from now.

Edited by AlexKarasev - 28 July 2009 at 21:04

vbpholaw wrote: AlexKarasev wrote: vbpholaw wrote: Dream on. I assume you're not serious about all of the above. I am dead-serious about wanting all of these in the next pro Alpha camera and paying $4K for the basic kit (1 viewfinder, 1 sensor). I'm likely to pay another $3K over time for the other accessory finders and sensors, especially if SONY hints at supporting the system with future sensors. Well, in that case it really doesn't show much understanding of integrated camera operations. For example, the processing pipeline is based on the imaging sensor characteristics. Having multiple sensors, of different types (assuming of course there was a cost-effective and reliable (quality control, performance, alignment, durability, etc.) way to allow them to be user interchangeable - which is doubtful) would require multiple processing pipelines in the "base" camera, or are you assuming that you also would be changing the camera's internal computer along with the sensor to install the dedicated processing pipeline? That's just one example. While a bit of what you would like is fine, at least in isolation, when combined into the idea of a modular camera priced at $4K or less your "wish list" is totally unrealistic.

not so fast,
you should check out what RED has been up to lately. ok they have no optical viewfinder what makes it easier to create a modular system, but hey, they show a truly modular camera system. it CAN be done :-)

badjak wrote: vbpholaw wrote: AlexKarasev wrote: vbpholaw wrote: Dream on. I assume you're not serious about all of the above. I am dead-serious about wanting all of these in the next pro Alpha camera and paying $4K for the basic kit (1 viewfinder, 1 sensor). I'm likely to pay another $3K over time for the other accessory finders and sensors, especially if SONY hints at supporting the system with future sensors. Well, in that case it really doesn't show much understanding of integrated camera operations. For example, the processing pipeline is based on the imaging sensor characteristics. Having multiple sensors, of different types (assuming of course there was a cost-effective and reliable (quality control, performance, alignment, durability, etc.) way to allow them to be user interchangeable - which is doubtful) would require multiple processing pipelines in the "base" camera, or are you assuming that you also would be changing the camera's internal computer along with the sensor to install the dedicated processing pipeline? That's just one example. While a bit of what you would like is fine, at least in isolation, when combined into the idea of a modular camera priced at $4K or less your "wish list" is totally unrealistic. not so fast, you should check out what RED has been up to lately. ok they have no optical viewfinder what makes it easier to create a modular system, but hey, they show a truly modular camera system. it CAN be done :-)

Yes, but at what size and price? Remember, he suggested a "base" fully integrated camera at $4K, and not something close to the size of the RED (which will not be small when integrated with its various components to make a "complete" camera).

Much of the expense of the RED (thanks for an excellent example) comes from the fact that they are a new and very small, compared to SONY, company. I just got a quote for CNC manufacturing a particular kind of an adapter for the SONY mount. I was quoted $340. If SONY made this same part (based on pricing of their similar spare parts), the cost to them would be perhaps $3.40. The point about RED is that it shows what's possible when one doesn't cling to present camera designs that were done years ago.

One can listen all day for the reasons why something along the lines of what I described couldn't / shouldn't be done if one is into that sort of thing. Behind every corporate decision not to innovate, to protect the status quo, etc., there's meetings and focus groups and consultants with this sort of talk, always very impressive and argumentative. SONY had its share of those, including squandering their Walkman and Trinitron advantages when facing disruptive technology such as MP3 and the flat panel innovations from Korea. But if Bluray is any indication, they are willing to play creatively and to change the way the new video format is introduced (via a gaming platform, at a loss initially).

Almost fortunately, SONY Alpha division does not have a status quo they are satisfied with and want to merely protect - they want a bigger market share; they want to take it from Canon and Nikon. It forces them to not just react well to disruptive technology, but to be the ones introducing it.

I am a photographer, having never used my EE degree properly, so I expressed my wishes in a way that make sense to photographers not engineers. I'd leave it to SONY to invent the unified camera bus or whatever, and to their marketing dept to give it a fine name.

I've even left some features out from my initial post, namely, further reinforcing the SONY trait of putting more value-add features in the body that works with all lenses.
...Such as a few degrees sensor tilt for DOF control (the whole SSS assembly tilts) on one axis, and the lens mount tilt on a perpendicular axis.
...Also implementing the Maxxum 7's STF mode, only for a single exposure (assuming the shutter speed is below camera X-sync and the aperture is not wide open) by simply moving the aperture blades during the exposure.

If introduced in 2011 at $3999, such a system, I think, could be considered as disruptive technology on the market. I.e. it would allow images that are not merely better than the competitors by some marginal and disputable percentage and in some specific conditions, but rather simply impossible to obtain with Canon and Nikon (or in the case of tilt, requiring their specialist lenses). SONY has always thought of itself as an aspiration brand and as such they need an awesome camera far and away better than the second best one, but still priced well for what it delivers (no Bang Olufsen / Leica pricing). Trying to just make an "almost-Nikon/almost-Canon for less money" won't get them into the position they ought to be in - insisting on this course would be, like Gagarin had once put it, "not a ride, just squirming by"

--Alex Karasev

Edited by AlexKarasev - 29 July 2009 at 01:07

cmon, how should a interchangeable sensor work?

This destroy any idea of perfect align of elements.
What if you put in the "module" a half mm wrong? -> bad image quality or viewfinder or AF no more working right....

Then there is a good risk of scratching it when changing or storing.
Well that is great for the company as you buy a new one every time.
But bad when you finally decide to go back to other company with "classic" design.
Sometimes there are just reasons why things haven't changed over decades!

And for 16bit (per channel) color images is no market.
people (even pro photographers) will complain that their PC does handle them very very very slow.
Cause most don't know hardware specs and what is the magic behind them.
Also Software that does handle 48 bit is rare and expansive.
24bit to 48bit is a rea huge step and everyone liking the idea, might needs some more lecture about.

Can't you people edit down the quotes?


Note: if you are responding to an earlier poster you can do it by starting with @ nameofposter.

Edited by brettania - 29 July 2009 at 03:16