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what is the future of A mount?

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fritzenm View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fritzenm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2018 at 14:06
Originally posted by Hobgoblin Hobgoblin wrote:


I'm not sure that the loss of light with the SLT mirror was the primary cause of people leaving A-mount. It was the move away from OVF to EVF that pushed many over the edge.


I'd say both. And as a result of an extremly successfull misinformation campaign, taking the real impact of those design options out of proportion.

Currently I see it happening to some amount in the opposite way, making C-users worry about the lacking DR.
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote overeema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2018 at 14:20
Originally posted by Eclipse Eclipse wrote:

1/2 stop is, even for me who struggles sometimes with light, really not worth a hill of beans either way. As the A9ii is, in terms of ISO, many stops better than my current A900, a 1/2 stop advantage given by having no mirror is just irrelevant- mere chaff in the wind compared to losing the use of my superb 2.8/200G and 2.8/100SF lenses.

Ironically, as I use them mostly to squeeze a bit more light in when it's a bit dark for the SSM zooms, I'd actually gain even less than nothing by going mirrorless.....I just can't understand the obsession with it- and I depend heavily on having good AF for fast moving subjects. It's almost like its the only fault some e-mount people can find with a-mount so they feel they have to flog it to death for some weird reason. Me, I don't go on the e-mount forum grumbling about what I want but e-mount cameras don't do, I buy an a-mount camera and spend my time concerned with getting the best out of it, so why do e-mount users feel the need to come here and spend time moaning about their problems with a-mount specs?

If you want mirrorless, the range is there for you. You're very well-provided with what are undoubtedly excellent bodies, and I congratulate you. However, some of us see no need for mirorless, and it has actual drawbacks for us, so could we on the a-mount forum have a bit of a moratorium on the issue for people to take a breath, and take stock? It can hardly be a big issue on the a-mount forum for actual a-mount users- if we were obsessed with it, we'd have migrated to e-mount, for which there is already a very active forum. I don't go onto the e-mount forum endlessly moaning about things e-mount doesn't do. It's getting seriously boring - I'm all for free comment, but it's a pain in the neck having to wade through post after post about it saying the same things over and over again.

+1 !
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Photosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2018 at 14:56
Originally posted by whiteheat whiteheat wrote:

...to the point we end up with those stereo typical imbeciles in those Sony ads that so did upset you.


In fairness to Sony, they didn't start it. Olympus brainwashed us before that with Kevin Spacey not wanting to be "that guy"..., Mister super zuper eight pocket fifteen lenses three tripod flack jacket... He doesn't want to be that guy.

He wants to be camera chow picture wow. Different.

Please Mister Spacey, have at it.

Selling the dream of professional photography with the ease of nail biting has long been a powerful alure to the market place.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Eclipse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2018 at 15:22
w.r.t. adverts, if you really want your business to tank, rubbish your own products. See the sorry tale of 'Ratner' the jeweller in the uk. He was reported as saying, at an industry event, that products sold in Ratner shops were 'crap'. The resultant avoidance of the shops by the public* cost the group an estimated 500m, and though some other brands within the group which were not identified by the public with the toxic remarks did survive, the 'Ratners' brand shops didn't.

Negative ads are not a great idea when they point out flaws in the competition (in fact, overt forms of such ads are not allowed in the UK) but to do it to your own other products really is a special kind of stupid.

* who wants to take their prospective fiance to buy an engagement ring to a shop where its products have been described in public by the company chief exec. as 'crap'?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Maxxuman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2018 at 15:25
Originally posted by Eclipse Eclipse wrote:

1/2 stop is, even for me who struggles sometimes with light, really not worth a hill of beans either way. As the A9ii is, in terms of ISO, many stops better than my current A900, a 1/2 stop advantage given by having no mirror is just irrelevant- mere chaff in the wind compared to losing the use of my superb 2.8/200G and 2.8/100SF lenses.

Ironically, as I use them mostly to squeeze a bit more light in when it's a bit dark for the SSM zooms, I'd actually gain even less than nothing by going mirrorless.....I just can't understand the obsession with it- and I depend heavily on having good AF for fast moving subjects. It's almost like its the only fault some e-mount people can find with a-mount so they feel they have to flog it to death for some weird reason. Me, I don't go on the e-mount forum grumbling about what I want but e-mount cameras don't do, I buy an a-mount camera and spend my time concerned with getting the best out of it, so why do e-mount users feel the need to come here and spend time moaning about their problems with a-mount specs?

If you want mirrorless, the range is there for you. You're very well-provided with what are undoubtedly excellent bodies, and I congratulate you. However, some of us see no need for mirorless, and it has actual drawbacks for us, so could we on the a-mount forum have a bit of a moratorium on the issue for people to take a breath, and take stock? It can hardly be a big issue on the a-mount forum for actual a-mount users- if we were obsessed with it, we'd have migrated to e-mount, for which there is already a very active forum. I don't go onto the e-mount forum endlessly moaning about things e-mount doesn't do. It's getting seriously boring - I'm all for free comment, but it's a pain in the neck having to wade through post after post about it saying the same things over and over again.
Fully agree with this. The only thing I'd say is you should try using your 200 and 100 for portraits if you're not already. Since going FF I really love being able to use my 200 for portraits without having to shout instructions to the subjects.
Barry
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2018 at 18:44
Originally posted by QuietOC QuietOC wrote:

Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:


The A99 has zero OSPDAF points. None. In A-mount it's only the A99II (so far).

How do you think AF-D works? The A99 has 102 OSPDAF points.

Sorry, you're right of course - I forgot all about that. I even started a thread dedicated to the subject back in 2012.

By the time I bought an A99 for myself (and later sold it), I never even paid attention to the option. It was pretty easy to overlook because apparently only one of my many lenses supports it - which leads once again to my continued skepticism regarding a 'mirrorless' A-mount future.
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote mikey2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2018 at 18:53
If anyone is still wondering if their A Mount Dino-cam is still working, please feel free to test it out for a month in the April Foolishness challenge.

Sign up here!




Naturally, E mount users are just as equally welcome.
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    kapuschinsky View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote kapuschinsky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2018 at 18:54
    Originally posted by whiteheat whiteheat wrote:




    Hahaha! I agree with you. But the point is that we are dealing with perception. An analogy for you. Say you received good, perhaps even great service or product from a company. It became so regular that you took it for granted. Then one day that company does something to piss you off. Going down the track, do you remember that company for all the years of great service or product, or do you remember them for that one time they pissed you off? Reputations take years to build and just minutes or seconds to be destroyed. Well, the same with SLT. Minolta/Sony gave us great products, technological cutting edge kit with innovation a plenty. And what do we do? ....why that blasted SLT mirror...moan.....is A mount going to live...no, it seems not....cry....etc. You can please all the people some of the time, you can please some of the people all the time but you can't please all the people all the time and some people you can't please any time.



    I completely agree. Hence to why there will always be the cult followers including myself that enjoy the quality and workmanship that came with the older A mount Models, than upgrading to the tech savvy new ones. My husband and I were just talking about this last night, and how it seems like CaNikon has become so consumed with the goal of staying on top that quality and resiliency have taken the back burner. Take, for example, the huge recall Nikon had last year with regards to the failing shutter on their D750. And this year, I have seen countless complaints with regards to Canon's Mk IV- everything from it corrupting storage cards, to failed sensors to completely dead units. Then take into consideration the many big names that have been using and relying on the reputability of these brands for years, if not decades. It's upsetting many, and causing some to jump ship. And Sony, successful as they've been, is not immune to this, either. I've seen several complaints with their newer models, in particular the a99 and 99II than I have ever seen with the older a850/900. But does it make one better than the other? It's all really a matter of preference, which fuels the supply/demand. Take, for comparison purposes, the Dodge Challenger. Some prefer the sleek, new model, for the sake of appearance, modernity, fuel efficiency and status symbol. Others, on the other hand, would rather the original muscle car- for it's structure, resiliency, sentimentality, and again- the status symbol that comes along with it. Neither are better or worse than the other, and sure, Dodge doesn't make parts for the old model anymore, but it sure as hell doesn't stop people from buying used or restoring them. I hope it's safe to assume that Sony knows this- yes, the A mount is an aging breed, but the reputability and quality in their workmanship and in the lenses that can be paired with them have kept many from switching to the newer E mount. Hopefully Sony considers this in the continued manufacturing of their lenses.

    But going back to the increasing loss of quality- it seems like there's a tipping point each one of these companies is trying to carefully balance- consumer happiness and reputability in good performing products vs saving money in compromising quality. This is a fine line that each company treads, and is controlled heavily by the consumer, which is controlled by marketing/advertising/popularity, and of course brand name reputability. If CaNikon continues to manufacture and distribute their top of the line products with major flaws as above, I believe they are treading on thin ice. Like you said, Whiteheat, brand reputability is lost much quicker than it is gained.

    Edited by kapuschinsky - 20 March 2018 at 18:59
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    mike77 View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote mike77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2018 at 22:57
    Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

    Originally posted by mike77 mike77 wrote:

    Yes, with the A99II you can get 47% but not 90%.

    What makes you think the presence of the SLT mirror is responsible for that, or that removing it will make a difference?


    There is plenty of material out there that explains the factors that limit the covered AF area of DSLRs and also DSLTs. It is not the mirror by itself, it is the overall approach involving two optical paths (of which the mirror is a part of) and a PDAF line sensor of limited size. Getting rid of that removes (a subset of) these limitations.

    Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

    Originally posted by mike77 mike77 wrote:


    As for screw-drive: is there any reliable info according to which they wouldn't work with on-sensor PDAF now and in the future?

    I didn't say they wouldn't work. Is there any reliable info that they will work as well? That's what I'm talking about.


    Sorry, I cannot find my crystal ball at the moment. What we know is that some screw-drive lenses support hybrid AF, so there is no fundamental incompatibility that couldn't be overcome.



    A99, NEX-C3, HVL-F43M, more than enough glass (A, E, M42, MD)
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote C_N_RED_AGAIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2018 at 00:34
    Iíve been out photographing in various places in southern Utah this week. Good and bad news for Sony mounts. I have seen as many Sony cameras as I have seen nikons. Canon still leads both by a considerable amount. However out of all the Sonyís Iíve seen I havenít seen one a mount. They have all been e mount. Surprisingly good number of a7r3s and a bunch of r2s as well and some a6000 and a6500s. Now obviously this is in a vacuum a small sample size but it speaks volumes to me as it answers the original question what is the future of a mount. I think the buyers are answering that question

    Edited by C_N_RED_AGAIN - 21 March 2018 at 00:50
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Photosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2018 at 01:45
    I just had a premonition that a77III is soon to come with full frame and a7III specs... but with SLT of course.

    Not the game changer than EMount a7III is considered, but definitely would infuse AMount with some much needed attention and I bet generate enough sales to justify the production.

    Market... cornered.
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Evildogsofdoom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2018 at 03:35
    For me the success of E-mount means that the A-mount is also likely to continue. The A99ii and A7Rii/iii share the majority of their high value components (sensor, IBIS, shutter, processor, EVF and LCD). Sony seems to be playing leapfrog with these cameras. Some components first appeared in the A7Rii, some in the A99ii and some, now in the A7Riii. This allows R&D costs to be spread over several models and making the A99 series cameras cheap to develop. I would expect an A99iii after Sony releases is next generation of FF sensors in the A7Riv.

    The bottom line is, if A-mount is profitable, it will continue. If it isn't, it won't

    Edited by Evildogsofdoom - 21 March 2018 at 03:42
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    sybersitizen View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2018 at 04:09
    Originally posted by mike77 mike77 wrote:

    Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

    Originally posted by mike77 mike77 wrote:

    Yes, with the A99II you can get 47% but not 90%.

    What makes you think the presence of the SLT mirror is responsible for that, or that removing it will make a difference?
    There is plenty of material out there that explains the factors that limit the covered AF area of DSLRs and also DSLTs. It is not the mirror by itself, it is the overall approach involving two optical paths (of which the mirror is a part of) and a PDAF line sensor of limited size. Getting rid of that removes (a subset of) these limitations.

    That doesn't make any sense. The restriction to the central area of the frame applies to dedicated PDAF. OSPDAF can work independently and does not have those same limits (though it does have some limits).

    One significant reason why E-mount can have much more extensive OSPDAF coverage across the frame is that CDAF takes over from OSDPAF in that system for final accuracy; and E-mount lenses were designed from the beginning to work well with CDAF. The vast majority of A-mount lenses were never designed to do that, and they do not work well with it.

    If Sony removes the SLT mirror and tries to make an A-mount body with only OSPDAF points covering the whole frame, it will have problems unique to A-mount because of the (so far) essential role CDAF plays.

    Originally posted by mike77 mike77 wrote:

    Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

    Originally posted by mike77 mike77 wrote:


    As for screw-drive: is there any reliable info according to which they wouldn't work with on-sensor PDAF now and in the future?

    I didn't say they wouldn't work. Is there any reliable info that they will work as well? That's what I'm talking about.

    Sorry, I cannot find my crystal ball at the moment. What we know is that some screw-drive lenses support hybrid AF, so there is no fundamental incompatibility that couldn't be overcome.

    The type of hybrid AF those lenses support is A99II hybrid AF (OSPDAF + dedicated PDAF), not the hybrid AF found in E-mount (OSPDAF + CDAF) ... and the dedicated PDAF part needs the SLT mirror.
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    Miranda F View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2018 at 10:59
    Originally posted by QuietOC QuietOC wrote:

    Originally posted by amrep amrep wrote:

    But as image sensors matures and become capable of taking care of AF, the AF sensor can be replaced by another image sensor. Hence, an A-mount camera can have two image sensors, each optimized for very different tasks.

    I had this idea too. You would lose the SLT penalty.

    Two sensors with phase-detect pixels orientented orthogonally could have cross-type AF.

    The Bayer patterns could be complimentary so you would have two colors sampled at every pixel without pixel shift. Complete four color pixel shift would only require just a single shift for each sensor.

    Two full 135 format image sensors would require a large, expensive body.


    But if you added a small high-pixel-density 2nd sensor form one of their compact cameras you could get a digital zoom function with real increased resolution ... on lenses which would provide the extra resolution.
    Miranda F & Sensorex, Sony A58, 5d, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras . . .
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