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Will there ever be a long tele prime for FE?

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Miranda F View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2017 at 09:18
I've used the Kenko 400mm f8 which is pretty good and a lot smaller than any of the other good mirror lenses, and it does lovely donuts when you want them , but I have some doubts whether the results are much better than (say) the 100-300mm APO with some digital zoom/crop.

OTOH the Tamron 500mm f8 is still amazing despite its age. It gives me the best moon pics of any lens I've tried, with much more detail than any of the 300mm zooms or MF 350/400/500mm primes I have. The downside of it for use such as sports or birding is the very slow MF, which of course wouldn't be the case with the Minolta mirror.
A58, 5d, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras . . .
 



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Cekari View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cekari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2017 at 16:37
FE Lenses from Sony and ZA:

Wide Angle zoom:
12-24 F4 G
16-35 F4 Sony/Zeiss OSS
16-35 F2.8 GM

Midrange zoom:
28-70 F3.5-5.6 OSS
24-70 F4 Sony/Zeiss OSS
24-70 F2.8 GM
24-240 F3.5-6.3 OSS
28-135 F4 G PZ OSS

Tele zoom:
70-200 F4 G OSS
70-200 F2.8 GM OSS
70-300 F4.5-5.6 G OSS
100-400 F4.5-5.6 GM OSS

Wide angle prime:
18mm F2.8 Batis
21mm F2.8 Loxia
25mm F2 Batis

Medium wide angle:
28mm F2
35mm F1.4 Sony/Zeiss
35mm F2.8 Sony/Zeiss

Standard:
50mm F1.8
50mm F2.8 Macro
50mm F2 Loxia
55mm F1.8 Sony/Zeiss
50mm F1.4 Sony/Zeiss

Portrait:
85mm F1.8
85mm F1.8 Batis OSS
85mm F1.4 GM
90mm F2.8 Macro OSS
100mm F2.8 STF GM OSS
135mm F2.8 Batis OSS

Tele Prime:
200mm-NADA
300mm-NADA
400mm-NADA
500mm-NADA


When Sony when…
Images https://www.flickr.com/photos/cekari/sets/ ,

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momech View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote momech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2017 at 17:52
Now that the A9 is being released they'll have more reason to develop and release these lenses; I suspect they've got some in the works.
However, they really need to step up their game if they want to compete in that market. I've not had an opportunity to try out the A mount Sony 500/4 but I've briefly used both 300s and they're not really in the same class as the new Canons - and probably the Nikons as well. Not to mention Sony TCs - which are being discussed in that thread.
My ideal would be someone to develop an EOS to E mount adapter that provides full functionality with my Canon glass.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kilkry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2017 at 18:10
I agree about the lack of tele primes but a fast one would be out of my price bracket. How many EF 400 5,6 have Canon sold since -92 or whenever it was introduced? How popular is Nikon's new 300/4? Or just shock everyone out of their socks with a 200 2,8, hah. I suppose they think ~these focal lengths and apertures are covered by zooms now and people like zooms. Zooms will never be as potentially small and sharp as a prime at their longest focal length. As for FE 500 / 4 variants, yep, they'd say pro together with the A9 and increased service/loaner options.

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maewpa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maewpa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2017 at 05:44
How about the Sigma 150-600 and 120-300 with the Sigma adaptor - and any new Sigma primes in the Sport range too, presumably?

I was very interested to see that but most current e-mount users of course are interested only in performance with the Art lenses and I haven't found any talk of experience with the Sigma Sports lenses. I will try it myself with the 120-300 if I can get an adaptor but I am a terrible lens tester, reaching peak boredom after about 10 minutes of it.

And won't one thing that Sony will greatly benefit from on long teles, especially zooms, be that they don't need to be micro-adjusted? Only Sigma currently allow you to do that at different focal lengths and apertures, and it takes the patience of Job! Do not underestimate the attractiveness of this in the wildlife and sports enthusiast/ occasional pro market. It can easily make up for a slightly poorer testing bench result.

Anyway I would have thought Sony have to make a long, fast telephoto and put it out before the Olympics - it just seems so obvious that is the next step, along with putting some of this speed and high speed continuous focus tracking accuracy in a 7-series camera.

But of course full functionality with the Canon lenses would be the ideal solution - but I can't see Canon helping with that - if anything you would think they would do the opposite.

Paul aka maewpa
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Post Options Post Options   Quote QuietOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2017 at 05:47
Originally posted by maewpa maewpa wrote:

How about the Sigma 150-600 and 120-300 with the Sigma adaptor - and any new Sigma primes in the Sport range too, presumably?

Here is a review of the 120-300/4 on the MC-11 and A6300.
Sony SLT A65 30M 35/1.8 50/1.8 16-50 16-80 16-105 18-135 18-250 55-300
Sony A5000 LA-EA1 16/2.8 16-50PZ Rokkor 45/2 55/1.7 58/1.4
Minolta Maxxum 70 24/2.8 28/2.8 50/1.7 85/2.8 100M 135/2.8 100-300
 



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maewpa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maewpa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 02:18
Thanks QuietOC I had missed that. Seems like the firmware had not been updated. Not that encouraging, but kind of promising all the same.
Paul aka maewpa
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2017 at 18:05
SAR reports with high confidence that a "fast" 400 is in development, but still 3-6 months out...
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/whats-next-sony-135mm-fe-400mm-fe-rx-camera/#disqus_thread

I recall seeing a statement that Sony intended to be visible on the sidelines of the 2020 Olympics, in the pro's gallery alongside the CaNikon shooters; to do that, they'll have to get those 300-and-longer fast telephoto's out into the pro's hands... soon enough for the pro's to be willing to shoot them at that once-every-4-years event!!!
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PMac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PMac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2017 at 09:49
With the announcement of the A9 Sony is clearly and unambiguously courting professional photographers. Apart from the fact the press release was titled something like “changing professional imaging”, I stopped counting when I saw “professional” or “pro” included 20 times in the main text.

Looking at the A9 its also pretty obvious these “pro’s” aren’t landscape, fashion or product photographers – the A9 is quite clearly for reportage/sports photogs.

Within a few seconds of the press release getting onto DPReview the internet had decided the A9 couldn’t work because Sony hasn’t got the lenses it needs. Thom Hogan is pretty adament on this and even this thread follows this logic.

Personally I’m not so sure.

First, lets think about general reportage. With the (admittedly not all available right now) 12-24, two 16-35’s, two 24-70’s, two 70-200’s plus options in key short/mid primes clearly Sony has the line up both in medium speed/light weight and high speed/high weight to cover just about anything a reporter/general journo needs. I cant think of any situation your general news/travel/street/etc reporter cant cover with the A9 and current (announced) lenses.

Second, sports. Less clear cut. Right now an A9 sports photog that works sidelines of big fields is out of luck – there aren’t the big fast heavy tele primes they need. However just how much of the market is that?

I suspect its actually way less than half, perhaps as low as 5-10%. Any sport that requires the photog to move and/or allows you to get closer to the action than 50 meters away doesn’t really need anything much over 200mm.

Further, in 2017 who are the sports photogs that are going even consider a Sony A9? Are they the pros already working in or for big agencies with extensive inventories of glass? I think not. I think the typical market of the A9 will be the free lancer, the stock photo taker, the newbie looking for an edge, the weekend pro, the jack of all trades vlogger and photographer, the BYO gear contractor with event companies. The people that cover lower profile sports (cycling, triathlon, swimming, etc) and lower levels of big sports that the major media agencies don’t.   Very few of these people will be looking to spend $5700USD-$13000USD (Canon prices for fast teles from 200 to 800mm). From my experience these guys and girls do perfectly well with the 70-200 zooms and/or slightly slower primes, say a 300 4.

In 2017 my estimate is that these freelancer/part timer/self funding sports photographers make up the vast majority of the kinds of buyer likely to consider the A9 and by and large the Sony E mount lens line-up has them covered. Even better, this market has turn-over, people do it for a few years, decide their kids should see them more on weekends and get replaced by a new crop, most of whom go on to buy all new gear.

That said – will Sony build some long tele primes for the E mount? Probably. I suspect mostly for the bad but real reason that Sony needs to be seen as ‘serious’ by providing lenses that almost no one will actually buy.
Hopefully Sony will try and be both ‘serious’ and smart.

What I’d personally like to see is two native E-mount mid speed primes. Like the current mid speed zoom range, a really good 200 2.8 and 400 5.6 or 300 4 and 500 5.6. Pair these with a high quality 1.4 TC and perhaps up update of the current LEA-4 adapter with (say) the internals of the the A99II AF system and Sony has it covered.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote kefkafloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2017 at 16:35
The possible options:

200 f/2
300 f/4
300 f/2.8
400 f/2.8
400 f/4
500 f/4
600 f/4

Of these lenses, the 300 f/2.8 and 500 f/4 should be the first options because they've already built them before and redoing those designs should not be that hard. They hit the most amount of customers, IMO.

Next, the real "sports sideline" lens is the 400 f/2.8. That and the 600 f/4 should be the next two primes.

Last, get 200 f/2 and 300 f/4 to round it out.

I'm not sure how many of these would sell, but it's basically a hit they have to take to fill out the system.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lonewolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2017 at 17:08
Originally posted by PMac PMac wrote:

With the announcement of the A9 Sony is clearly and unambiguously courting professional photographers. Apart from the fact the press release was titled something like “changing professional imaging”, I stopped counting when I saw “professional” or “pro” included 20 times in the main text.

Looking at the A9 its also pretty obvious these “pro’s” aren’t landscape, fashion or product photographers – the A9 is quite clearly for reportage/sports photogs.

Within a few seconds of the press release getting onto DPReview the internet had decided the A9 couldn’t work because Sony hasn’t got the lenses it needs. Thom Hogan is pretty adament on this and even this thread follows this logic.

Personally I’m not so sure.

First, lets think about general reportage. With the (admittedly not all available right now) 12-24, two 16-35’s, two 24-70’s, two 70-200’s plus options in key short/mid primes clearly Sony has the line up both in medium speed/light weight and high speed/high weight to cover just about anything a reporter/general journo needs. I cant think of any situation your general news/travel/street/etc reporter cant cover with the A9 and current (announced) lenses.

Second, sports. Less clear cut. Right now an A9 sports photog that works sidelines of big fields is out of luck – there aren’t the big fast heavy tele primes they need. However just how much of the market is that?

I suspect its actually way less than half, perhaps as low as 5-10%. Any sport that requires the photog to move and/or allows you to get closer to the action than 50 meters away doesn’t really need anything much over 200mm.

Further, in 2017 who are the sports photogs that are going even consider a Sony A9? Are they the pros already working in or for big agencies with extensive inventories of glass? I think not. I think the typical market of the A9 will be the free lancer, the stock photo taker, the newbie looking for an edge, the weekend pro, the jack of all trades vlogger and photographer, the BYO gear contractor with event companies. The people that cover lower profile sports (cycling, triathlon, swimming, etc) and lower levels of big sports that the major media agencies don’t.   Very few of these people will be looking to spend $5700USD-$13000USD (Canon prices for fast teles from 200 to 800mm). From my experience these guys and girls do perfectly well with the 70-200 zooms and/or slightly slower primes, say a 300 4.

In 2017 my estimate is that these freelancer/part timer/self funding sports photographers make up the vast majority of the kinds of buyer likely to consider the A9 and by and large the Sony E mount lens line-up has them covered. Even better, this market has turn-over, people do it for a few years, decide their kids should see them more on weekends and get replaced by a new crop, most of whom go on to buy all new gear.

That said – will Sony build some long tele primes for the E mount? Probably. I suspect mostly for the bad but real reason that Sony needs to be seen as ‘serious’ by providing lenses that almost no one will actually buy.
Hopefully Sony will try and be both ‘serious’ and smart.

What I’d personally like to see is two native E-mount mid speed primes. Like the current mid speed zoom range, a really good 200 2.8 and 400 5.6 or 300 4 and 500 5.6. Pair these with a high quality 1.4 TC and perhaps up update of the current LEA-4 adapter with (say) the internals of the the A99II AF system and Sony has it covered.



All pretty valid points.
I agree completely on the reportage side of things, and this will translate into wedding shooters too - some really big benefits for that scenario.

The big tele's are used at a lot of major sporting events, olympics, NFL, AFL, soccer etc.
Anything field sport basically

You're right that i cant see any of the large stocked agencies/papers etc swapping at the drop of a hat.
They would need a measurable benefit to doing so.

A lot of sports photographers are no longer employed by the publishers - the local major paper in my city fired all but one or two staff photographers and they supplement everything else from freelancers (Getty and others)
I'm hoping to be one of them one day.

Easier for a standalone guy to make the switch.
Having now a 400mm F2.8 for my Nikon system to be able to provide high quality results, I'd never be able to go back.

And for someone like me - yep no chance i'd drop that volume of money on a new Nikkor lens which is currently $12k+
However i picked up my couple of generation old one for 1/4 that price....
Sony does not have this this to leverage.

What I think will be the deciding factor for now is 2 things.

1) support from Sony - fast turnaround times and presence at events
2) how well the Canon super-tele's work adapted. Large majority of sports shooters shoot Canon, and a big 2nd hand market for glass.
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Kilkry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kilkry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2017 at 18:03
Originally posted by kefkafloyd kefkafloyd wrote:

The possible options:

200 f/2
300 f/4
300 f/2.8
400 f/2.8
400 f/4
500 f/4
600 f/4

Of these lenses, the 300 f/2.8 and 500 f/4 should be the first options because they've already built them before and redoing those designs should not be that hard. They hit the most amount of customers, IMO.

Next, the real "sports sideline" lens is the 400 f/2.8. That and the 600 f/4 should be the next two primes.

Last, get 200 f/2 and 300 f/4 to round it out.

I'm not sure how many of these would sell, but it's basically a hit they have to take to fill out the system.


It would be hilarious to read "point of mirrorless system!!" in various previews and dpreview threads, even if you would never use one of those behemoths* without at least a monopod.

It would also signal a pretty steep course change for Sony.

I don't know whether you can mostly copy an A-mount design when creating an E-mount lens.

*300/4 excluded. That's one I hope they do in E-mount. That and 400 5,6.
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Steve-S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2017 at 18:47
Originally posted by kefkafloyd kefkafloyd wrote:

The possible options:

200 f/2
300 f/4
300 f/2.8
400 f/2.8
400 f/4
500 f/4
600 f/4

Of these lenses, the 300 f/2.8 and 500 f/4 should be the first options because they've already built them before and redoing those designs should not be that hard. They hit the most amount of customers, IMO.

Next, the real "sports sideline" lens is the 400 f/2.8. That and the 600 f/4 should be the next two primes.

Last, get 200 f/2 and 300 f/4 to round it out.
But the 300/2.8 and 500/4 can be adapted from A-Mount. As suggested above, an updated LA-EA may be called for.

400/2.8 is a big gaping hole for Sony in the sports/action world, neither E- nor A-mount has it covered; if I was betting, that's where I'd bet.
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kefkafloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kefkafloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2017 at 19:51
Originally posted by Steve-S Steve-S wrote:

Originally posted by kefkafloyd kefkafloyd wrote:

The possible options:

200 f/2
300 f/4
300 f/2.8
400 f/2.8
400 f/4
500 f/4
600 f/4

Of these lenses, the 300 f/2.8 and 500 f/4 should be the first options because they've already built them before and redoing those designs should not be that hard. They hit the most amount of customers, IMO.

Next, the real "sports sideline" lens is the 400 f/2.8. That and the 600 f/4 should be the next two primes.

Last, get 200 f/2 and 300 f/4 to round it out.
But the 300/2.8 and 500/4 can be adapted from A-Mount. As suggested above, an updated LA-EA may be called for.

400/2.8 is a big gaping hole for Sony in the sports/action world, neither E- nor A-mount has it covered; if I was betting, that's where I'd bet.


Adapted lenses are not a long term solution, Sony needs to have them in native format so they can shoot at 20 FPS with continuous AF.

400 f/2.8 is really expensive and is less useful, it's pretty much a "only field sports shooters" lens, while the 300 f/28 and 500 f/4 have a broader market reach. I expect them to make it, I just think it'd be third in line.
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