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Post Options Post Options   Quote whiteheat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2018 at 00:25
That isn't quite fair. Canikon were pretty much starting from almost no historical experience in mirrorless. At this point in time Sony has had 5 years plus advantage in system development. It would be unreasonable and unrealistic to expect canikon to bring out a 'Sony' beater in most or areas of significance, right off the bat. A first foray in to uncharted waters should not result in an immediately superior product - it would be most unusual if it did. Canikon are going to spend a few years trying to catch up to Sony. Of course, whether Sony will allow its advantage to be eroded in that manor is another question.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote C_N_RED_AGAIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2018 at 00:32
While I agree with your points white heat Sony also developed all this from scratch. Most certainly canon and Nikon studied Sony’s mirrorless cameras thus eliminating a lot of the growing pains Sony had to go thru to get to this point. Again like I alluded to earlier it would be naive to think that Nikon and canon engineers didn’t have various copies of Sony mirrorless while they were developing theirs. From two camera titans I expected a little bit more. It would also explain why Nikon and canons versions are more similar to the rii and a7ii. Those were the cameras Nikon and canon had available to copy. Sony dropped a bomb on them that they weren’t prepared for by dropping the a7iii with all those features at that price. And it also helps explain why the a7iii is still backordered

Edited by C_N_RED_AGAIN - 06 September 2018 at 00:36
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addy landzaat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2018 at 10:58
Originally posted by C_N_RED_AGAIN C_N_RED_AGAIN wrote:

Addy why are we comparing this camera to the a7rii?
Well, not just, also to the A7r3. But I agree it is up against the mark 3, not the mark 2. I just thought you're too negative at points. It is competitive without surpassing (or even matching) the A7r3, but basically surpasses the A7r2.

I think this is in-between the A7r2 and A7r3, maybe even has some advantages of its own. But it seems the A7r3 still has the better specifications.

Originally posted by C_N_RED_AGAIN C_N_RED_AGAIN wrote:

Btw addy eye af on the canon is in afs only.Much prefer it in afc for obvious reasons.   
Me too.

Your remark on the fps btw is more less right, I wouldn't call it "Very slow fps" but "disappointing slow fps" - 8 fps without AF is okay, but it drops so low with AF it is like a 10 year old camera. My remark on that was a bit cheesy, sorry...

Originally posted by whiteheat whiteheat wrote:

That isn't quite fair. Canikon were pretty much starting from almost no historical experience in mirrorless.
That is incorrect. Nikon had the 1-series and Canon is still making the Canon EF-M cameras - in fact, Canon sells more of those then does Sony E-mount cameras.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote whiteheat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2018 at 13:03
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Originally posted by whiteheat whiteheat wrote:

That isn't quite fair. Canikon were pretty much starting from almost no historical experience in mirrorless.
That is incorrect. Nikon had the 1-series and Canon is still making the Canon EF-M cameras - in fact, Canon sells more of those then does Sony E-mount cameras.

Yes, you are right, my bad. I over stated the case. I wasn't considering those lower level cameras ($500 to $900 range) when I said that. I was solely focused on FF mirrorless.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Heidfirst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2018 at 15:21
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Also, Canon has a EF-M 28/3.5 Macro APS-C lens, so, they really think we need wide angle macro lenses. Most macro lenses these days have image stabilisation, you can turn it off when you use it on a tripod

If it was a standard 35mm/1.8 prime I could see it but why go to the extra effort of making it a Macro (assuming 1:1)?
A 28mm Canon APS-C (1.6x) = 45mm FF (same as Sony have a 30mm Macro for APS_C on both A & E mount) which is nearly the classic copystand macro length. But who is using copystands anymore ...?
So, you have a Macro (assuming 1:1) presumably with a very short working distance & with the ability for very little depth of field.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2018 at 16:40
Originally posted by Heidfirst Heidfirst wrote:

Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Also, Canon has a EF-M 28/3.5 Macro APS-C lens, so, they really think we need wide angle macro lenses. Most macro lenses these days have image stabilisation, you can turn it off when you use it on a tripod

If it was a standard 35mm/1.8 prime I could see it but why go to the extra effort of making it a Macro (assuming 1:1)?
A 28mm Canon APS-C (1.6x) = 45mm FF (same as Sony have a 30mm Macro for APS_C on both A & E mount) which is nearly the classic copystand macro length. But who is using copystands anymore ...?
So, you have a Macro (assuming 1:1) presumably with a very short working distance & with the ability for very little depth of field.
You've got it Somebody will have a use for this lens. In fact, both people who want a fast 35mm and a shorter macro will use this lens.

Btw, there are also people who have a use for the Laowa 15mm f/4.0 Wide Angle 1:1 Macro lens - a little less fast, but a lot wider macro.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2018 at 17:15
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Somebody will have a use for this lens. In fact, both people who want a fast 35mm and a shorter macro will use this lens.

... like the SOny 30mm macro. It's nice to have a widish-standard focal length lens which will focus close, even if you aren't down to 1:1.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cliff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2018 at 17:57
The 50mm f1.2 @ $2,299?

Sony's 50mm is $448 and a Zeiss is $1,498. What could possibly make a Canon 50mm prime worth that kind of money? It is the better part of the Zeiss plus 2 Sonys. I don't see $ 1,850 value added in f1.2 vs f1.4 for the Sony or $800 over the Zeiss for that matter. Can in lens stabilization be worth almost as much as an A7iii body with IBIS plus a Sony 50mm?

The Canon mirrorless seems like a better effort than the Nikon, but conservative to keep from making big mistakes, and a significantly slower development cycle than we have seen from Sony. They both will get better, but mirrors are dead.

The race is on. Expect we will be tickled by Sony's response. A7Siii should be a hummer, the a6500 successor too (and maybe a mirrorless a99 to pre-empt CaNikon big body mirrorless). Interesting that both Nikon and Canon have gone out of their way to avoid price competition with Sony. Will that continue to be one of Sony's areas of disruption?    
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2018 at 23:43
Originally posted by Cliff Cliff wrote:

The 50mm f1.2 @ $2,299?

Sony's 50mm is $448 and a Zeiss is $1,498. What could possibly make a Canon 50mm prime worth that kind of money? It is the better part of the Zeiss plus 2 Sonys. I don't see $ 1,850 value added in f1.2 vs f1.4 for the Sony or $800 over the Zeiss for that matter. Can in lens stabilization be worth almost as much as an A7iii body with IBIS plus a Sony 50mm?
The RF 50/1.2 doesn't have IS, but you can buy two of these RF 50/1.2 for one Z 58/0.95

You don't see the added value of a f/1.2 - but people want what they want. For instance, Sony has a perfectly capable almost pancake like 35/2.8 and a 35/1.4 for those who want/need a faster lens. But still people are bitching for a 35/1.8 - these people have two very good 35's available or they could simply use the 28/2 and just make a step forward, but still, to some the biggest hole in the Sony FE line-up is a 35/1.8
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Post Options Post Options   Quote whiteheat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2018 at 00:27
Originally posted by Miranda F Miranda F wrote:

Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Somebody will have a use for this lens. In fact, both people who want a fast 35mm and a shorter macro will use this lens.

... like the SOny 30mm macro. It's nice to have a widish-standard focal length lens which will focus close, even if you aren't down to 1:1.

Yes, if you are talking about the DT-30mm F2.8 macro, it is an excellent low cost macro lens. I'm actually quite happy that the image circle means I get an APSC sized image, the size saving actually works for me on the things I photograph. It's cheap yet sharp and usable outside of macro work too. Oh, it is also a 1:1, i.e. true macro lens, not a half macro lens.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote photoorb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2018 at 01:41
I don´t understand. Canon and Nikon have 4-5 years to do a camera that will blow Sony away. And they fail big time.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dxqcanada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2018 at 01:53
I think it is more about keeping their customers as opposed of taking new ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote whiteheat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2018 at 04:46
Originally posted by photoorb photoorb wrote:

I don´t understand. Canon and Nikon have 4-5 years to do a camera that will blow Sony away. And they fail big time.
You are right. I think the reason they haven't been able to do so, (personal opinion now follows without any hard evidence to support it and should be viewed as an a priori advocation) may be because they fell asleep at the wheel. They became complacent thinking that mirrorless capabilities could not seriously challenge their traditional DSLR hegemony. Then, when they finally realised that mirrorless capabilities can now at least rival and in some cases, surpass what traditional DSLRs can do, their customer base was already being seriously eroded. True, some of that erosion by mirrorless encroachment into their market may have been masked by the even more serious impact that mobile phones were having particularly on their higher end point and shoot ranges.

But overall, by the time they woke up to the fact that mirrorless was the future and anything mirror based, was going the way of the dodo, mirrorless manufacturers had got a bunch of years head start in terms of investment into their respective mounts. Canikon have had their mirrorless apsc offerings for some years now, but they hadn't really put any serious development investment (other than small incremental steps) into expanding the capabilities of their mirrorless ranges. That's my take on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hobgoblin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2018 at 06:06
I was at the SMM marine equipment exhibition in Hamburg last week and attended several press conferences/announcements by some of the exhibitors. Some of them use pro photographers to cover their events, of the three that I attended all of the pros were using Sony gear - A7rii and A7ii plus one that I didn't get close enough to (that guy also had an assistant who was shooting with a Canon).

I spoke to the two guys with cameras I did identify and one said he'd switched from Nikon and the other from Canon. Both of them said they were amazed at how much better the Sonys were than the DSLR cameras they previously used. I asked if they would consider going back to mirrorless models by their old system makers and they said they didn't think they would as they regretted not making the switch sooner and didn't think that there would be much that Canon or Nikon could do that would improve on what they have now got with their Sony models.


OH and there was also a semi-pro there (lil old me) who covered his commission with an A77ii.

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