TP: Cheap secondary wireless flash?
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Printed Date: 22 May 2025 at 00:54
Topic: TP: Cheap secondary wireless flash?
Posted By: chych
Subject: TP: Cheap secondary wireless flash?
Date Posted: 12 March 2007 at 02:22
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I have a Sony A100 and a Sigma EF-500 DG Super flash. For taking indoor/'studio' type applications, I've found that I need a second wireless flash to augment the Sigma. Can anyone point me to a really cheap flash that works with the Sony and the Sigma wirelessly? (I hope such a thing exists). I don't mind if I need to manually set the flash power either.
Moved to Talking Points as this is an excellent resource thread. ------------- Sony A700, Sig 24-70/2.8, Sig 15-30/3.5-4.5, KM 50/1.7, Tam 70-200/2.8, Sony F56AM, Sony F36AM |
Replies:
Posted By: Dumont
Date Posted: 12 March 2007 at 21:43
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I just bought a new Sigma EF 500 DG for $225 to use with my5D and 7D, I don't think you can find a KM 3600 or a Sony 36 for less than that and since the Sigma is more versatile it is a better buy. Even if you buy used I do not think you will find anything cheaper that is fully compatible wired much less wireless. ------------- https://www.flickr.com/photos/148586121@N05/ - My Flickr http://www.pbase.com/dumont - My Pbase |
Posted By: gian
Date Posted: 12 March 2007 at 21:51
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There are cheap wireless triggers on ebay. I think that you could use them to trigger any flash, with manual settings.
But I'm not 100% sure. ------------- ::: Gianluca ::: http://www.gianlucatristo.it/ - Gallery ::: Life is once, forever - Henri Cartier-Bresson |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 01:23
| Those flashes on ebay are pretty cheap, $30-$50, what I'm looking for. Not clear on how the exposure has set, I hope somebody out there has tried these and can comment... |
Posted By: monte920
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 05:33
I have not tried those, but I doubt they will work. By design, all 7D/5D/A100 can only use built-in flash to trigger wireless flash units. You may use as many as wireless flash units you like, but you can't use any of them as a master to trigger other wireless flashes. |
chych wrote:Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 07:32
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chych,
I'm not completely clear about your wireless question, but, the studio type application lends me to suggest a cheap solution for you. I have a 500 DG Super as well. I love it for portrait work both on camera and wireless. But if you want multi flash set ups you either have to buy more 500's or go in another direction. I wanted to have a main light, fill light, hair light and even multiple background lights. Well even at a 200.00 bargin you can easily spent a ton of money with all the lights, stands, and gear to set this up. First: I use my 500 DG as the onboard master (lets call it Fill Master). It is in wireless mode and it has a LumiQuest 90 degree bounce sytstem on it. It is called the 80/20 and I use a full white insert to bounce all the light toward the subject, thus the Fill Master title. The flash is pointing straight up with the bounch head attached. No preflash in this manner. Second: About 5 or 6 feet to my left is a light stand run up to about 6 feet with a Sunpak 433D (Main light) in A mode so the thrystor circuit is functioning. This flash has been turned 180 degrees facing into a 42" umbrella()I use gold/white comb for warmth) that is mounted on a hotshoe umbrella holder. Thrystor port and open side of umbrella facing forward toward subject. The flash is mounted on a optical slave hot shoe (very cheap on Ebay) then setting in the shoe/umbrella holder mounted on the light stand. Third: Approximately 4 foot to my right and slightly behind subject plane is my trusty Metz 32 Z-1 (Hair/Shoulder light)mounted exactly as the Sunpak on a light stand a full 7 foot high aiming straight at the head or shoulder of my subject in A mode with 1/4 power selected. I have a black construction paper snoot held on with a rubber band holding it in place. No umbrella. Fourth: Behind my subject(only when not shooting a black low key background) I have a short backlight stand with two studs with hotshoe holders. I have the same optical triggers on them and use two Nikon SB-20's (Background lights, one high/one low)that have excellant ability to truly light a background high and low. This is all truly wireless. Not a single sync cord, no AC. I can do two modes of exposure manipulation. One I can shoot a few frames and adjust my exposure or the simplist, use my cheap flash meter and use M mode on my camera for absolutely stunning results. As you can imagine you can adjust each flashes output, tilt and swivel in any direction because of the hotshoe/umbrella flexable holders, and get simply any kind of exposure you desire because your shooting in manual. I don't know what your skill level is with manual but trust me, your digital dslr suddenly is in your control not the other way around. Cost: 2 light stands-8 ft tall with bags........46.00 with shipping 4 optical hotshoe sensors from India......49.00 with shipping 4 flashshoe/umbrella holders..............60.00 with shipping 1 Sunpak 433d used ebay...................28.55 with shipping 1 Metz 32 Z-1 used ebay...................18.00 with shipping 1 Backgroung light stand double mount.....22.99 with shipping 5 umbrellas 2 white, 2 silver, 1 gold.....38.65 with shipping 2 Nikon SB-20 from KEH ugly...............40.52 with shipping 1 Shepard (Polaris)flash meter(used)......41.57 with shipping TOTAL COST:.....................................345.28 Highly portable, extremely powerful, low upkeep!! Obviously you can use other name brands and perhaps even lower your cost by shopping better than me, but, I have the power and portabilty I was so looking for. You will want older auto thrystor flashes with tilt, swivel, and multiple power setting for the flexibility. The trigger voltages will not matter in this way. Don't buy those little low power slave flashes, too under powered and generally not enough A setting and no power settings. Besides you may need a guide number of 150 one day and those cheap things can't light up your dog house. I may have taken up a lot of bandwidth and space to get flamed by many of you for lack of automation, but this truly works well for me. I shot 350 church league basketball players this past saturday with this rig and I don't need any retakes. Good light writing, Aaron PS: I used a black Walmart king size bed sheet duct taped to a concrete wall in the gym for a backdrop (9' x 9'6").... Cost...14.88!! LOL PSS: This entire setup including the duct tape fits into the bag that came with the light stands. I can set the whole thing up in 5 minutes and be shooting. Also you can buy colored plastic folders for reports and cut them to velcro on your sb20's for colored backlight highlights on light colored backdrops (sheets), Nice effect. Cost fifty cents each. I can get 5 people grouped on this cheap backdrop system. HaHa ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: gian
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 07:46
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I'm referring to this: eBay id 140093412698.
Radio wireless. It needs a PC Sync connection to work. Camera -> hotshoe-pcsync -> radio-transmitter -> radio-receiver -> pcsync -> manual-flash/studio-strobe. I'm not sure 100% that this will work on Minolta/Sony, but it should. ------------- ::: Gianluca ::: http://www.gianlucatristo.it/ - Gallery ::: Life is once, forever - Henri Cartier-Bresson |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 07:56
Hi gian, I looked into these and talked to a good friend of mine who has a 7d. He said he encountered several consistancy problems with one he bought from B&H. I decided to go optics. the ones I bought evens work in daylight (up to about 20 feet)if the sun's not low on the horizon. Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: gian
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 08:03
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Hi Aaron, your setup is brilliant :-)
It's the best one to start with, imho. ------------- ::: Gianluca ::: http://www.gianlucatristo.it/ - Gallery ::: Life is once, forever - Henri Cartier-Bresson |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 08:05
Thank you!!!! ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: gian
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 08:11
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Well.. perhaps I'm biased: I'm totally ingnorant in flashes and studio lights, and I'm not so good in portraits, but a friend of mine is using almost the same setup: a good main flash and a serie of old manual but powerful ones to support it with diffusers. I think that he tried the radio wireless, I have to ask, but at the end he bought some optical triggers too, afaik. ------------- ::: Gianluca ::: http://www.gianlucatristo.it/ - Gallery ::: Life is once, forever - Henri Cartier-Bresson |
Posted By: Dumont
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 13:26
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Hi Aaron,
Thanks for your post. Makes me wish had seen something like that before buying the 4 Minolta compatible flashes I have now... I don't suppose there is are optical hotshoe sensors that have the Minolta flash mount? That would be perfect, I could keep the present setup and just ditch the cords. Do you happen to know if such a sensor exists? I could not find any with quick look on ebay, I will have a look elsewhere on the web. ------------- https://www.flickr.com/photos/148586121@N05/ - My Flickr http://www.pbase.com/dumont - My Pbase |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 13:41
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Aaron, thanks for your system layout, it certainly is a way for me to do this and I will look into.
As I'm fine with triggering the flashes with the built-in flash, I'd like to know how the item in ebay id# 300090153180 works. It looks like it may have an optical sensor that's triggered from the camera's signaling, but I'm not clear on how exposures work. |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 15:48
I'll look around today and see if I can find a workable solution as well. ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 16:55
First let tell you what the Pheonix 92 isn't! It is not an automatic flash (no p-ttl or adi). It is simply put a "booster" for your popup. Yes, via 3 different switch settings you can negate the preflash signals to the flash and it then flashes with (in sync) your popup. It uses the same thrystor circuitry I have been talking about, using your camera at a set aprature, (ie; manual mode or set aprature priority) The IR illuminator on the Pheonix WILL NOT WORK unless it is directly attached to the camera hot shoe with a Minolta/Sony foot(not FS-1100 adapted). In essence you would be buying a cheap auto thrystor flash with no power settings and only two A modes with a built in optical slave sensor. Why do this to yourself when you already have the great 500 DG you can bounce trigger with and fire regular optical slaves attached to far more powerful and infinitly more flexable used low cost auto thrystor flashes (Sunpak 333/433; Nikon SB-20, 25; Metz 32 MZ-1, MZ-2; Vivitar 383, 385, etc) with selectable power settings. The portable flash unit is acting much like a true monolight in this way. Let me stress the importance of the multiple power settings. If you want to put a small amount of light on your subject you can simply switch the power setting switch to the amount of power (actually duration) you want without worrying with some type of diffusion. Or in most portrait situtations actually blowing out the subject with a full blown flash. This is exactly what you will get with the dumb slave flashes reguardless of how much tilt, swivel, or zoom they have. But it seems so simple. You will note the flash picture they provided was to light up the back yard fence, fine they are showing the only true application this type of flash is good for...boosting the distance of your popup. Remember also you will still need to be setting in the aprature that the flash is set at. The camera does not know those flashes are out there and will do it's best to fill the scene with the popup. Keep in mind if you try to use ADI with you popup and the slave flash this combination will not product accurate settings. The settings in the camera are determined during preflash which the slave flash is ignoring. Also you still have the annoying and sometime determinal "lazy eye" issure as long as preflash is present. ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 17:38
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Thanks for the clarifications georgiaboy. I certainly want control over the exposures, so I think I'll be looking into the optical hotshoe + good manual flash setup.
One last question, how is the optical slave hotshoe triggered? I take it that it fires when the camera's on-board flash fires? Does this make it incompatible with the minolta wireless flashing protocol (i.e. if I want the Sigma 500 wireless using minolta protocol, and a different flash wireless on an optical hotshoe)? |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 17:52
Yes that is a problem. THe popup will preflash and cause your optical remotes to flash premature. I use, as stated my 500 dg as the fill trigger flash, I am in manual exposure mode determined by my flash meter and simply use the 500 on the camera. No, you are not using the automated wireless protocal. But, it is in a studio type arrangement and this is not absolutely necessary. I do often use my popup and 500 in wireless for "walking around photography" or to use on a high flash bracket. You will not be using your popup to flash your slaves, but, your 500 on board the hotshoe does that. ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: sooten
Date Posted: 15 March 2007 at 19:38
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Aaron, I have the 5D and I know I can't turn off the pre-flash. My question would be could I use PC chords to fire the second, third, etc... flashes from the (in my case) Sony 56 flash.
Example: have the on camera flash up to trigger the remote 56 wirelessly, then a PC chord from the 56 to the next light, etc... Would this work? Substitute the PC chord for the optical triggers? For some reason I hate the idea of using a $350 flash simply as a trigger for $20 flashes and not be able to use it in an umbrella as my main light! Your thoughts and willingness to share are greatly appreciated. Thanks, Scott ------------- Scott He who laughs last thinks slowest! |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 16 March 2007 at 01:02
Hi Scott, You know you may have something there. I have never tried that mainly because I am always moving the light stands around in an effort to achieve a certain effect. This said I was trying to eliminate any wires that could get in models or my way. However, I'm with you about using the high dollar flash as a trigger. I would suggest before you buy I bunch of synch cables just try this with one cheap flash and be sure this will work. The problem I see is how or what kind of adapter are you going to use for the sync port from your flash? I don't know of any Minolta foot to oem adapter with a sync port. One could fabricate perhaps. Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: sooten
Date Posted: 16 March 2007 at 02:48
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Aaron, I may not have all of my facts straight! I was think of coming off the port on the side of the Sony 56 flash to go to the other flashes, but reading your reply leads me to believe that this might not work. Has anyone else tried this, or even think this is possible?
I have never used another SLR brand, so I am not familiar with the standard PC sync port. Is it not the same as the Minolta/Sony? I really have no info on this, so any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks, Scott ------------- Scott He who laughs last thinks slowest! |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 16 March 2007 at 03:25
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Aaron, one question - when you fire the trigger flash _with_ preflash (so it actually flashes twice), do the flashes on the optical hotshoe also fire twice? Or just once?
I was playing around with my EF-500 in wireless slave mode (manual exposures, not with the minolta protocol) and it looks like it flashes twice, triggered from the built-in flash that pre-flashes. If the optical hotshoe flashes also fire twice, then it should be possible to use the EF-500 wirelessly, with the built-in flash triggering. However the built-in flash also adds lighting too, so I'd probably want to make a diffuser/reflector for it to get better lighting. If this works, this could solve sooten's problem too, so the big expensive flash can also be used wirelessly with cheap secondary WL flashes. Of course if your subject blinks from preflash, then that would be a problem (maybe 2 sec timer can be used). Another curiosity is that the EF-500 in slave mode does not trigger when the camera is on WL mode; perhaps the EF-500 filters this out, but you confirm that the optical hotshoes do trigger when the camera fires its flash in WL mode? edit: nevermind, I tried this again and there are synchronization issues with the EF-500; the method I mentioned will not really work... |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 16 March 2007 at 07:45
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sooten:
I do not have a 56 flash nor have I used one. If it has a sync port on it, it might be able to sync other flashes via a sync cord. Heck try one and see. I would however, not knowing about this, advise using a flash with low sync voltage. I don't know how or if a high voltage unit might effect your 56. BTW, those intelligent sync devices you mention in the other thread show promise. chych: I can see you have stumbled on some of the same frustrations I did. I went down that path as well. It seemed to work one time then did not the next time. The issue is that the optical flashes are dumb.They fire as soon as they see light, any light. Now sooten has found some more intelligent sensors that to me show real promise with being able to use the 500 in wl and still get only one light pulse to the remote thrystor flashes. See his thread about these. They are however expensive but if your only buying two or three they may be worth it. I think I'm going to order one and just try it. Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 16 March 2007 at 21:50
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You can use the 5600HS(D) in wireless TTL mode and at the same time use two of the signals out of the accessory port to trigger remote flashes. I will post a diagram when I get home tonight.
For example, set up the 5600HS(D) for good exposure of the main subject. Then use the sync output of the 5600 to radio trigger a gelled colored background light and a hair light.
------------- Rick |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 17 March 2007 at 06:33
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OK, here is the verified info. I was mistaken in the last post. This will not work in Wireless Mode, only on-camera or with cable.
When the 5600HS(D) is on the camera or on the OC-1100 cable, you can use the flashes sync output pins (the +red and -'bare wire' in the Minolta flash cable) as long was you are not above 1/160 (AS off). The 5600HS(D) can be in TTL mode. The wired remote flash will not pre-flash, and is triggered only on the main flash. The flashes signal output is 2.5 volt that has a zero volt pulse at the main flash time. This may confuse some radio remote devices since they also will have a low voltage output. I built an interface circuit to deal with this and also so I could also use flashes with high voltage sync. The Flash Interface Circuit is shown below: 
The System Diagram connecting the 5600HS(D), an external other flash, and the KM 5D via an Interface Circuit is shown below: 
[
------------- Rick |
Posted By: Alain
Date Posted: 17 March 2007 at 10:02
If you put the 56 in manual mode, it's possible to turn off preflash. But then it's an expensive flash trigger. Some of those e-bay hot shoe adaptor's with a radio or ir trigger could do the same. You could also start with a sync cord from the adaptor. I don't recommend placing a big flash on an adaptor, it becomes a little bit instable. Alain |
Posted By: Alain
Date Posted: 17 March 2007 at 10:35
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A usefull website for this kind of stuff : http://www.strobist.com - Strobist Alain |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 17 March 2007 at 20:55
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Mojo:
Thanks much for the isolation circuit. I have printed it out for future assembly. I can see multiple uses for my in-studio setup. sooten was of need for this arrangement and hopefully he will read this post. He has the 56. Alain: Thanks for your thoughts. chych was trying to eliminate using his Sigma EF500 DG Super as a big expensive trigger. He wants to use his 500 in wireless mode (as main flash with umbrella) activated by the a100 on-board flash. The trouble is of course preflash then activates the "dumb" optical sensors on the flashes used for fill, back ground, hair light, etc. Now sooten found some intelligent optical sensors (in China of course) that can "ignore" the wireless communication pulses and only fire at the main pulse thus syncing correctly. Wein has a peanut digital PD sensor but they are not selectable and some photograpers on Stroblist have had bad experiences with them. I ordered one of the Chinese versions today. You can use multiple ones or one with sync cables on flashshoe/umbrella holders simular to MojoRick's second diagram only using 500 off camera wireless. chych does not care about the wires, I do, I don't want any at all...thus the optical sensors at every light for me! There are other alternatives such as radio triggers but, experience from my best friend says not consistant enough. I could cough up 200.00 per copy of 500 DG's and easily have 1000.00 in flashes alone, this is not a viable solution at this time. Using low cost flexible, adjustable flashes is great for me. As far as putting a large flash on an adaptor, I always use gaffer tape on open end of flash shoe slide for added security and rock bags on each light stand. Your right Stroblist is a great site. BTW Canon guys are fighting this same problem. ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: Alain
Date Posted: 17 March 2007 at 22:09
Hi I'm sceptical about ignoring preflashes, I have a very cheap "digital" slave flash with 5 options, but none of them works. I would be very happy to know if a specific type is working... I did post the question also to sebi, he has made an convertor board for older flashes. Alain |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 17 March 2007 at 22:28
Hi again Alian. I'm also very interested in any circuit that would work. Please let me know. The configeration I described at the beginning of this thread is working for me right now, But, like chych I would like to use my EF 500 DG as the main in wireless mode. The Sunpak 433, Vivitar 283/5, or any multi auto thryistor with multi selectable output is what I want to control optically. It will probably be three weeks before this Chinese version arrives. ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: Alain
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 00:26
|
Hi
Some good news, I was reading the timings on the http://www.mhohner.de/minolta/flashcomp.php - mhohner flashcompendium and I noticed that the 7D only gives 1 preflash when an external flash is on camera. I tested it with my 5D and 5600hs and a cheap digital slave flash and it's working: only one preflash, this is ok for almost all "digital" slaves. Then I went looking at the internet and there are links to some DIY digital slaves, the first has used / is using an km 7D and has sent it for testing to http://www.network54.com/Forum/259791/message/1173497423/Testing - Pete Ganzel ! : http://www.pbase.com/sinoline/pic_ii - Rolf's Slave trigger I have the impression that he has pcb made, but it's uncertain for me... Will he sell them as a unit??? Another nice one : http://www.fancon.cz/slave-flash-trigger/slave-flash-en.html - other smart slave trigger and there are others... Alain |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 01:30
I e-mailed Rolf asking if he is selling the PCB and programed PIC. We e-mailed each other several times when he was developing it last September. My how time flies!
------------- Rick |
Posted By: sooten
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 02:33
|
Hey guys, I went to the local camera shop on Friday and played with one of those digital peanuts from Wein plugged into a Vivtar 285. It worked right everytime with both the pop-up and the 56 on camera. I forgot to try it with the two in wireless mode, so I will make another trip on Monday.
The way we tested to make sure of the actual firing was by pointing the slave equipped flash directly into the camera. In that way we could be sure it was firing at the proper time. I will let you all know what I find out at the shop on Monday. Scott ------------- Scott He who laughs last thinks slowest! |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 03:10
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sooten, make sure you take actual pictures with the slave flash. Even if it appears to be firing correctly, it may still not be synchronized with the shutter (try and have an obvious arrangement to see if the slave flash is making it into the image, i.e. point the flash into the camera lens).
Regarding the circuits, I like the idea of DIY and building a solution. However I do not like the idea of using a computer to do this (the PIC), since it is a pain to program a PIC (you need the right tools to do this). I suspect one could make something that would work using a photo-transistor, some capacitors and logic gates to ignore the pre-flash, which would make it PIC-free. I sketched a quick circuit up, maybe I'll try it some time (though since I'm not an electrical engineer, I'm not sure this will work!). |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 03:12
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They are kind of tricky to test for proper operation. I just now tested my Sunpak 120J with the WolfCamera/Ritz generic opto-slave trigger. Note: I have the KM 5D which is the same flash-wise as the A100. The KM 7D has true manual flash with no pre-flash mode.
If I set the Sunpak to less than full strobe, it will recharge fast enough to do both the pre-flash and the main flash. When I use the Sunpak external battery pack TR-PAKII it does a little better to recharge in time. If one could figure out how to make the camera set a longer period between pre-flash and main flash, it would work all the time, and for all power levels. So, if your flash cannot recharge super quickly, you are back to Manual mode on the 5D and 5600 in order to only get a main flash. Note: the on board flash on the 5D cannot be set to manual mode and so will not work. The bottom line is that if you can see the slave fire in the viewfinder, then it responded to the pre-flash. If it can re-charge before the main flash it will fire then also. My 120J is very quick on the re-draw and has a big cap, therefore it will trick you into thinking the opto-slave works. lol
------------- Rick |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 03:16
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BTW, I ordered one of Rolf's PIC solutions. I will give a review when it comes in. He is an interesting fellow. I wish he was on this forum. ------------- Rick |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 05:22
Well if anyone is interested, I'm looking to create a simple optical trigger that does not require a PIC (thus anyone can build it without getting a PIC programmer and writing code). Seeing that I'm a mechanical engineer with some limited electronics knowledge, anyone care to look over this design I've been sketching? I haven't bothered to determine what the resistors/capacitor values should be, but I'm wondering if my logic/layout is correct. Anyways, total cost of components should be <$5.
|
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 05:39
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Very well thought out.
A reset to a known condition is needed. What if the camera flashes an AF signal? ------------- Rick |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 05:59
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Ooh those AF assist signals would be rather annoying. If a big flash is on and it uses its AF assist red lamp, then it won't be a problem. A cheap laser pointer with a hologram attachment can be used for AF assist as well, and this works much better than the built-in flash AF assist.
I just tried this with my EF-500 in slave mode, it appears that the AF assist flash is weaker than the preflash. Then R1 can be tweaked to trigger only on preflash. I designed it so that whenever C1 hits TTL high as it charges, it flips the T flip flop, which disables the C1 charger, enables T2 that discharges C1, and goes into 'low' mode, so the system always wants to go to this 'low' condition. |
Posted By: Alain
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 11:08
|
Just another DIY one, but this has the possibility to wait. Looking at some of the diagrams in the flash compendium and Friedman page (links on dyxum flash section) I see that the main flash is after about ~140ms and the wireless system gives preflashes for about the first 105ms. So on first flash start ignoring for 110-120 ms (adjustable off course) and then waiting for the flash. I think this diagram does just that : http://www.sindlar.com/photo/flash_trigger/flash_trigger.html - slave flash trigger |
Posted By: Alain
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 11:09
I'm looking forward to it. Alain |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 11:19
These, as mentioned before, are available from B&H for 79.00 for a three pack. I have read several bad reviews however. They are very small and durable, Please report back as soon as you can. They , if work properly, will make a great solution. ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: sooten
Date Posted: 18 March 2007 at 18:45
Chych, this is exactly what I did. The guy at the shop pointed the flash directly into the camera lens. We took about 10 pics, and in every one, the flash was blowing out the picture. I will post the pics of our test Monday after we do it. ------------- Scott He who laughs last thinks slowest! |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 19 March 2007 at 05:08
Hey guys: Just a follow up to my previous post. I have read a great deal today about wein PN D's. It seems the problem with these is exclusive to Canon. Further reading indicates theses work very well with almost anything but Canon. I am anxiously awating your test Monday on these. Giveing the low cost of these I'm getting somewhat excited. Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 19 March 2007 at 06:24
|
Scott,
I like your signature quote: "Scott He who laughs last thinks slowest!" My brother, a year older, and I did everything together. He says that I commonly would get a belly laugh and then describe a joke we both heard a year past. So, I would like to suggest the following quote: "He who laughs last thinks deeply!" lol
------------- Rick |
Posted By: sooten
Date Posted: 19 March 2007 at 18:01
|
Well folks, bad news, the Wein triggers fire early when trying wireless mode. They work perfectly with the single preflash of regular on camera flash, either built in or accessory.
So I guess the options are a follows, try to build one yourself as some of you have suggested, wait for some of you to build one yourself and decide to sell them cheap ( big smile here!), try to find a Minolta off camera cord ( but then you are tethered to at least one flash) by which you could then run manual settings, and use cheaper triggers, or do what Aaron is doing and use your big flash on camera in manual mode to trigger the optical slaves. Aaron, let us know how the one you ordered from China works. If it works, then they are no more expensive then the Wein digital peanuts. Good luck, Scott ------------- Scott He who laughs last thinks slowest! |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 20 March 2007 at 00:07
Well craparooney! I sure had high hopes for that possibility. Anyway we'll wait and see about the chinese version. I'll post as soon as it comes and I can get it tested. Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 20 March 2007 at 04:03
|
Hope that chinese one works for you, Aaron.
I just bought a cheap $16 Vivitar flash off ebay, and I'm going to try and build a circuit that will work with it. I'll post how that goes, if it ever works! |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 20:38
Dumont, I think I have a solution for you using optical sensors and your Minolta footed flashes. I have a FS-1200 and I tried it with my Vivitar 740AF Mi and it worked. Now this said, the Vivitar does not have manual modes and power selections. If your flashes have this capability then what you need is a standard iso hotshoe with sensor and a FS-1200 setting in it, then mount the flash. FS-1200 are available from KEH used at 23.00us and 29.95 new from B&H. The FS-1200 has Minolta foot on top and iso 5000/7000/9000 foot on bottom. I had to tape all iso bottom pins except center pin, then it worked every time. Good luck!!! Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: Dumont
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 22:41
|
Thanks for your update. I actually have a FS-1200 on it's way to me in a package deal. I have to now get an optical sensor. Would you mind posting a link to a cheap optical sensor/trigger that you know works? I also now have a Minolta "off flash sensor" does that have any use? As per my separate post was wondering what it is for... ------------- https://www.flickr.com/photos/148586121@N05/ - My Flickr http://www.pbase.com/dumont - My Pbase |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 23:20
|
Dumont I have had really good results with these Indian built sensors. Got them off ebay at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Optical-Slave-Flash-Trigger-Digital-Wireless_W0QQitemZ330100537435QQcategoryZ30084QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I don't have the Minolta "off flash sensor" so I can't speak to that. I would have to see one, I'll do a little rsearch. BTW I would bet any hotshoe sensor would work. The standard Wein peanut does, I plug it directly into my SB-20 Nikon and it works fine. Get a hotshoe type that has sync ports and you can cord sync off of one sensor for multi flash setup. I use a background stand (short) with two flashes on it, one aimed high with zoom and one aimed low with WA to fill background with light. This is fabulous for high key backlighting or adding color with gels. ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 01:48
|
Hey guys, I got my Vivitar 35-D flash recently, which is an auto-thyristor type, and I didn't get an instruction manual with it. Can anyone help me figuring out what the settings do, i.e. the top and bottom?
I have a photo here: http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~csp/flash.jpg - http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~csp/flash.jpg It looks like the bottom has to do with the auto circuit, not sure what the colors mean on the bottom switch. Anyways it looks like the flash fires when I short two of the pins on the bottom, so now I'm about ready to build my time sensing optical circuit, just have to finalize that and order parts! |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 02:37
I was just sitting here figuring out how to use 'auto-thyristor' mode with my Sunpak 120J. I have the following auto-thyristor settings available: f/2.8, f/5.6, and f/8. I figured out you just set the camera to the corresponding f/stop (Note: you put the camera in Aperture-Exposure mode). The thyristor takes over to turn off the flash. If needed, set the camera 1/3 stop higher or lower to fine tune. I hope I figured it right. In any case it works super with no compensation with the 5D and 120J. ------------- Rick |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 02:44
The 'Off Flash Sensor' plugs into the Minolta 360PX flash (I do not know if it works in other Minolta flashes) so you can place the flash within cord distance of the camera and 'auto-thyristor' control using the light intensity at the camera instead of at the flash unit. ------------- Rick |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 03:08
Looks like mojo got it. Don't forget to set the iso value first, that will determine which f stops you wind up with for auto use. BTW you call also shoot full manual too. Set to flash sync, set iso, pick one of your A colored selections, read min/max feet of coverage, shoot away. Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 26 March 2007 at 07:33
The 'Rolf' optical slave trigger also only works for 'non-wireless' modes. When my 5D camera is in 'Pre-flash' mode it works well using either the pop-up flash or with the 5600HS(D) mounted to the camera. If the camera is in 'Wireless' mode it will not work. Therefore, the 5600HS(D) cannot be used off camera in wireless mode using the 'Rolf' digital optical slave trigger. ------------- Rick |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 26 March 2007 at 18:58
| Hmm that's unfortunate, I guess the delay isn't correct for the Rolf unit. Should be solvable with a different PIC program, but that's not easy to replace. Haven't had much time lately but I'll get around to my custom circuit eventually, we'll see how that goes. |
Posted By: Dumont
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 05:21
|
Hi again Aaron,
OK, so please let me try to get this straight and in layman terms. The Optical Slave Flash Trigger (OSFT), you provided the link for, attaches to the flash (see more about that below) and you can use "unlimited" amounts of flashes set up the same way and the trigger is the on camera flash? i.e. there is no unit to plug into the sync port of my 7D (like the radio ones)? Or am I getting all confused here? Next, I have some FS-1200's - So I would attach the Maxxum (4 contact - say 5400HS) flash to the FS1200 which in turn connects to the OSFT. Set the flash to manual mode and choose the strength and the zooming and then just shoot with the on board or any flash that connects to my 7D (corded or WL) and it will trigger the OSFT mounted 5400HS? Did you mention that for the connection between the FS1200 and the OSFT I would need to block the contact of one/some of the three contacts on the bottom of the FS1200? If so which one(s)?  
And here's a pic of my wired menagerie (not setup for a product shot but just to get them all in the same frame) and you can see the OC-1100 get's in the way. Wireless Optical triggers seems like a good solution since I already have 3 FS-1200 adapters. BTW you will see some sensor dust in this photo which is quite unavoidable between cleanings especially at f22!  ------------- https://www.flickr.com/photos/148586121@N05/ - My Flickr http://www.pbase.com/dumont - My Pbase |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 08:34
|
Hi Dumont,
I will try and give you the best descripton I can: FLASH SETUP: 1. On a light stand or tripod attach a regular hotshoe adaptor (oem type). 1a.If you buy the type that has a optical sensor built in (cheap Ebay type) they typically have the screw mount already on the bottom. It looks as though from the above spaghetti mix that you have mounts that will accept these already and you will not need to go direct to the light stand. 1B. If you have hot shoes that do not have optical sensors then they must have sync ports so a optical sensor can be attached to it. I prefer this type because you can remove the sensor if you want to and then you have sync ports if you want to go wired. But you already have those as indicated above in the #2 picture. 2. Then slide your FS-1200 into the hot shoe/sensor combo. 3. Then slide the Minolta mount flash into the FS-1200. 3a. It is at this point I want to discuss the taping of the pins on the bottom of the FS-1200. The typical oem plain hot shoe only has connections to 2 locations The center pin, and the ground to the flash. With the standard oem feet the ground connection is actually on the sides and is not always a pin. With my Minolta mount Sunpak and Vivitar I found it necessary to tape over the pin directly behind the center pin in your picture # 1. Thus leaving the other two that are there, ie center pin and one slightly to left and behind it as oriented in the picture. Honestly I don't know if this will be necessary with the 5400's. Not much trial and error however with just 2 pins. First try it without any tape, it may work. 4. At this point you will need to set your flash up the way you want it. It will have to be manual and then you pick the power setting you desire. More on this later! ON-CAMERA FLASH: If you have been following this thread you already know that sooten, chych, mojo, and others have been seeking a way to use Minolta/Sony wireless control for our main flash. To date this is elusive. So given that fact, we are simply religated to manual control. The optical sensors fire too early with ttl preflash or ADI. Given this is a controlled atmosphere setup its not the end of the world, just desirable! We are all working on it. so..... 5. Set your camera to M and put your main flash on the camera in a bounce position (this eliminates the preflash). I use a OmniQuest 80/20 bounce system with a full white bounce insert. Any bounce could be used. 5a. Initally turn on all the flashes and make sure they all flash when you take a picture. If not go back to 3a. and adjust the pin taping, I'm sure you will easily figure this out. Once they are all flashing in sync... METERING: 6. The absolute best metering situtation here is with a handheld flash meter. Because you are in manual mode the ttl and adi are not functioning properly and it will mean a lot of trial and error with the in camera metering. If you don't have a meter don't buy a high dollar one. I got a Polaris flash/ambiant meter for about 45.00us on Ebay. Works great, nine volt battery lasts a year. 6a. This said, you can however, do a regular metering with the camera using histogram as your set up guide, I always start about iso 100/f5.6/at sync speed. and adjust from there. Also use the on camera flash in bounce mode by itself as a reference point and add one flash at a time and make adjustments to what you see. Once all flashes are working then use the histogram and your screen to determine the setting changes for both the camera and each flash for the desired effect. Let me say at this point, that it may be possible since I am not familar with the flashes you have, to meter in A or P mode without the main flash being in manual mode. Just try it. Keep in mind you can only send one burst of light and the opticals will fire. Actually I think its two but one is not strong enought to fire them. Dumont I think this will work just fine for you. I'm basically doing the same thing except my add-on flashes are auto thyrsitors (Sunpak 433D's, Nikon SB-20's, and two old Metz's. I'm using as many as 6 flashes in this manner. All are in manual with selected power set except my Sigma is the trigger for all with the bounce head on it and I use it in FL TTL mode and as a powerful fill/trigger on camera. The Minolta wireless codes also will set off the sensors so it must be on camera or wired. But as I said, have heart we are all looking for solutions to overcome this last hurtle. I really hope this helps!!! Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: Dumont
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 12:44
|
Fantastic Aaron, very much appreciated!
It's very clear now, all I need is a few of the standard Hot Shoes with Optical Sensors (like the ones in your link) and I am good to go (except for maybe some trial and error with the pins). As for metering I use "educated" trial and error the old eyeometer that I have since birth, I have two actually that mom and dad gave to me. Lately have needed to use an optical adapter (glasses) but otherwise they work fine LOL. I also use the usb cord with my 7D with direct download of the photos to the computer with preview so it's pretty easy to tell if my setup is good or needs adjustment. Having only one cord attached to the camera (i.e. no OC-1100) will be great. Thanks! I will report back after I buy some Optical Sensors. PS One more question if you don't mind. I think I read in the thread that you could use the optical sensor on only one flash and it will trigger the others if they are PC Sync corded together. I wonder whether I could do the same with my Minolta cords, I would guess it would work too. Not that the Optical Sensors are expensive but I think I will start off with one and see how it works. I don't mind having the flashes connected by wire (I do only product shots so they are fairly close together) as long as they don't have to be tethered to the camera. ------------- https://www.flickr.com/photos/148586121@N05/ - My Flickr http://www.pbase.com/dumont - My Pbase |
Posted By: lockny
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 14:58
Hi, Aaron, and great post! Could you please post here the links to the places where you bought these things? |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 18:57
Yeah, you should be able to do it that way. I can't see any reason why that would not work. But remember, we are working in the unknown here and your mileage may vary. :) Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: Dumont
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 19:15
|
Many thanks again Aaron,
I just ordered an optical trigger and it should be here next week. I'll report back after testing it out. Darren ------------- https://www.flickr.com/photos/148586121@N05/ - My Flickr http://www.pbase.com/dumont - My Pbase |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 19:58
Hi ya lockny, Welcome to Dyxum!! As for the above items almost all came from Ebay sellers. Most of the items came from individuals with one or two items for sale. But I will give you search criteria...here goes! 1. simply "light stands" you will get hundreds, look for them sold in pairs with bags. remember there are so many so bid low and watch for sellers with high shipping costs. Also get ones at least 7 feet tall. 2."optical sensor" search will turn up a pile of these as well, I like the Sonia version from India. These things are extremely well built. They are available direct from manufacturer also another place is Ebay seller "oec camera"? in Texas, USA. But remember others will work too. 3."flashshoe/umbrella holder" This search will turn up many selections. These attach directly to your light stands and allow you to mount your sensor, umbrells, and flash. They should be the type that you can adjust. Make sure they are metal not plastic. If they don't say...assume they are plastic and don't buy them. 4. "sunpak 433" This will probably turn up 15 or 20 flashes. Don't buy the 433d AF or 433 AF, they do not have manual or A modes, TTL only (except Nikon D version). Note: the D designation on theses flashes means dedicated. It does not matter which camera it's for because your not using the ttl selection anyway! Another alternative is the now famous 383. They are not dedicated and are the exact same flash as the 433 but because of reputation of good quality cost sometimes 3x the 433 price. One really good thing about them is they only have the one center contact pin and don't require any taping. 5. " metz flash" Let me say this very good Z-1 is very old and getting hard to find. I personally suggest just replacing it with another Sunpak 433. I just ordered one to replace mine. 6."background light stand" these are available from "romacamera" and are always a .99 start bid. They do have a buy it now thus the price I paid with shipping. This thing is fabulous for the money. 7. "photographic umbrella" this will also turn up hundreds. Most are about the same quality. Cheap made but, cheap to buy. Best quality Ebay ones come from Amvona. 8.KEH.com in Atlanta, GA. World reknown used equipment dealer. They sell good quality stuff and tend to ship much better quality than their rating. Ugly is the bottom of their rating scale....my two SB-20's looked barely used. Note: You don't have to use this flash. Again the 433's will work as well. Or for that matter any auto thyristor flash with manual power selections. 9. "flash meter" I bought this meter from an individual and you will turn up many with the Ebay search. Don't spend a ton of money. However, make sure it does ambiant and flash metering. When they say digital it is only referring to the readouts on the meter and that has no bearing own your type of camera. I hope this helps you. Happy light writing!!!!!! Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: lockny
Date Posted: 30 March 2007 at 00:58
|
Thanks a lot!!!
You are very kind! Happy light writing to you! |
Posted By: X-R-M
Date Posted: 31 March 2007 at 01:50
|
Great thread.
First I want to thank Aaron for clear explanation of his wireless lighting system (cheap too!!!) and his willingless to share his knowledge with others. BIG THANK YOU AARON!!! I am recently trying to create wireless lighting to my to be mini-studio in my basement, so all information from this thread come very handy. I want to get one of those Indian triggers from e-bay: 1. http://cgi.ebay.com/Optical-Slave-Flash-Trigger-Digital-Wireless_W0QQitemZ330100537435QQcategoryZ30084QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#paymentmethods - http://cgi.ebay.com/Optical-Slave-Flash-Trigger-Digital-Wireless_W0QQitemZ330100537435QQcategoryZ30084QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#paymentmethods 2. http://item.express.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ExpressItem&item=190080552780&FROM_MERCHANDISING=1&tr=merch:cvi - http://item.express.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ExpressItem&item=190080552780&FROM_MERCHANDISING=1&tr=merch:cvi Does anybody (Aaron?) know which one performs better? From the pictures I would think that #1 supposed perform better because of protruding sensor, but I may be wrong. |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 31 March 2007 at 03:58
|
The first is the Sonia. It allows you to remove the sensor and still have a cord syncable hotshoe. I have tried the second ones one time and they worked just fine except can't remove sensor.
BTW X-R-M, YOU'RE VERY WELCOME!!!!! LOL Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: X-R-M
Date Posted: 31 March 2007 at 17:58
| Thanks Aaron.LOL |
Posted By: Dumont
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 02:47
|
Ok guys and especially Aaron (thanks again) here's my report.
1) I bought 1 OSFT/shoe (link 1 in XRM's post above which was one that Aaron had suggested back in an earlier post) 2) I put a Minolta 5200i flash into an FS1200 (adapts 4 pin newer Maxxum flashes to work on the 5000/7000/9000 older shoe) and placed it on the OSFT/shoe with no pin blocking. 3) The on board flash of my 5D/7D triggers the OSFT. I must say the OSFT does not attach very firmly to the shoe. Also the o/b flash is not a very good trigger, I had more success using a Sigma EF 500 Super on camera. 4) Next, from the accessory port of the 5200i I used a Minolta Cable CD to an OC1100 with a 5400HS mounted, and from that 5400HS's accessory port to another 5400HS. The OSFT triggers them all. So now the camera is un-tethered. The flashes are tethered together but that's not a big deal since they will remain in one place for studio shots. So, for now at least, I only need 1 OSFT. If you do not have the cables yet then it is probably better for you to buy a OSFT/shoe and FS1200 for each flash. But... 5) I also have a Minolta Sync Cord and it's connector fits the same plug where the OSFT goes into the shoe it came with. So I can now place the OSFT anywhere I can point the Sigma flash (on camera - no Sigma wl as a trigger experiments yet - thats later) and being pointed away the Sigma flash will not need to affect the product shots if I do not want it to. 6) Drawbacks sofar (and am not sure if this has to do with the 5200i being the "lead" connector - I don't think it does): The 5200i only syncs with the camera shutter at 1/40s, whereas the 5400HS's sync up to 1/125s I think this is because the HS's are HS's and the 5200i isn't. Also my Sunpak PZ5000AF will freeze up all the flashes after one shot (in cabled only with a OC1100 it worked fine) It's probably not worth the time and effort to troubleshoot the Sunpak and I guess the solution is to sell it along with the 5200i and get another 1 or 2 5400HS's (at bargain prices prices of course, thus the title of the thread, otherwise I should buy more Sigmas) I will advise any other findings. I welcome any questions you may have. Brgds Darren ------------- https://www.flickr.com/photos/148586121@N05/ - My Flickr http://www.pbase.com/dumont - My Pbase |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 03:05
|
Well, that's way cool. I am happy for you that the setup is where you are at lease temporarilary happy with it. Untethered camera, is a great advance. I shot some more this weekend with my origial set up and all is ok for me. STILL WAITING FOR CHINESE DIGITAL PREFLASH CANCELING SENSOR!!!!!!
Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 05:33
|
Well recieved the Chinese wonder today. I have, because of family over for Easter , had no time to test it yet. Look for indepth review early next week. Happy Easter all!! Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 17:49
| Hope it works for you! Saw the description, says it ignores red-eye preflashes, which is similar to the Minolta wireless preamble flashes. I've just ordered parts for my DIY one, I'll see how that goes. |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 11 April 2007 at 05:28
|
Well friends I have given the Chinese wonder a real good test. I will describe the sequence of events.
1. I recieved the sensor in a small pink box wrapped up in a Easter bunny and egg bag. No instructions whatsoever. I did, however, contain two disc batteries to power it. It has a small push button switch on one side with a standard female sync port. On the other side it has corresponding leds for the selection chosen. They light up and stay lit when selection is made. On the back is a small 1/8 inch female connection I'm not sure if this is for AC power or older pc sync connector. It has a standard light stand or tripod connector on bottom. On top is the OEM flash connector with one center pin and nothing else. The entire afair is made of cheap thin plastic and might weigh 2 ounces. Because of small rubber feet on the bottom it does surfice as a nice table top stand for most any flash. 2. First test I put a Sunpak 433D in manual mode and and used the On-board flash in PTTL with a Minolta 50 1.7. Camera in Program mode. The Sunpak did not flash. I then pushed the selection button on the sensor to position 1 and tried again. The flash synced and worked very well. I tried all five settings on the sensor and found number "1" was the only one to allow the flash to sync. 3. I then changed lenses to the KM 18-70 DT and changed the A100 to ADI. The Sunpak synced again on selection "1" on the sensor. I also synced on selection "2", but, none of the others. 4. I then returned the sensor to selection "1" and then placed the Sigma 500 DG Super on the camera and set it up as wireless. I then placed the Sigma on it's stand and took a picture. The Sigma, of course, went off but the Sunpak did not. I the tried each selection across the 6 available and basically ....nothing!! 5. I then embarked on every combination of camera/flash setting I could imagine. It would only flash the Sunpak when not in wireless. I tried several different flashes on the camera, as long as it was on camera it would fire the Sunpak perfectly, typically in selection "1" or "2" or both. 6. I then tried using sync cords to string out four other Sunpak 433's. Using non-wireless setup on main flash as above the Sunpaks...none, but the one setting on the sensor, would flash. I then removed them one at a time and still only the one on the flash would fire. 7. I then checked the sync port on the sensor at flash time and there was activation with 5.4 volts present (assuming this to be trigger voltage of the 433). Why it would not sync is beyond me. Conclusion: The Chinese wonder is a total cheap POS. From what we have accomplished so far the same solution for non-wireless multi flash set up can be accomplished using the much better quality Wein Digital PND sensors. Same cost by the way. The real problem is the wireless signals. Not having a solution to prevent early flash while still being able to use the main flash (ie: Sigma 500 DG Super, KM56, etc.) off camera-without teather is the whole problem. I know several of you are looking into this. If you can beat the wireless signal then we should be able to combine the electronics of the Chinese sensor and the wireless signal suppressor. I will gladly loan this cheapo piece of junk for such an undertaking to any of you electronics wizards. It does after all work quite well against any preflash except wireless! C&C Welcome!!!! Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 11 April 2007 at 08:19
Rats!!! That is the same result as the 'Rolf' optical slave I got.
------------- Rick |
Posted By: sooten
Date Posted: 11 April 2007 at 15:28
|
Thanks for the info Aaron, too bad it didn't work out. Well, now back to the drawing board... ------------- Scott He who laughs last thinks slowest! |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 22 April 2007 at 18:12
|
Hi all, I've been working on my flash circuit lately and am getting good results. I'm still working on improving my circuit; some things like the phototransistor I bought isn't sensitive enough, so I'm trying to boost its sensitivity. I'll post my final design when I'm comfortable with it. Of course there is another circuit out there (posted earlier in this thread) that does a similar thing (aimed at Canon flash), and I think that one is simpler, but I wanted to take the effort into designing electrical circuits, as I'm trying to learn this stuff. Total cost is something like $15 for one (plus the time involved to build the thing!). Of course, I still need to package my circuit into a nice box with a switch and such.
Here is an image of my Sigma EF-500 (on the right) being fired using WL flash simultaneously with my $15 Vivitar auto-thyristor flash: 
|
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 23 April 2007 at 02:03
Hey. OK chych!!! That is fantastic. I anxiously await your design. Take lots of pictures for assembly. Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 23 April 2007 at 04:39
Alright here is the (I think) final version of my circuit, which seems to be working:
Some explanations: S1 = On/Off switch V1 = A 9-volt battery (I have a bunch of these lying around so I'm using this). What's important is that the power source you use is sufficient for U1, the voltage regulator (which requires a minimum of ~7V and also has a maximum allowed voltage, look at the datasheet). U1 = 5-volt Voltage regulator; this is important, as it ensures a constant 5V is used as logic and Vcc levels. The time delays in the circuit are calibrated for the 5V, so a constant 5V is a must (regular batteries decrease in voltage over time). C1 = Makes the 5V output less susceptible to ripples/flucuations; does not have to be exactly 0.22uf, just in that ball park (I'm not even sure this is even necessary). Vcc = Logic high voltage, 5V in this case, just to make it clear. R5, LED1 = LED to tell if the thing is on (optional). I put a 10k resistor, and with the LEDs I have (just some lying around), the LED is very dim, just enough to tell that the thing is on and not suck too much power. You can use a smaller resistor if you prefer more light (i.e. a 1k). Q1, Q2 = IR Phototransistor, activates when it detects light. There are two because the ones I got have a small detection angle; this is to increase light capturing. You may want more than two, or if you find a better phototransistor (and I didn't), one will suffice. R6 = Sets a maximum amount of current going through the phototransistor (the ones I used were 50mA max). C3, R1 = 10 hz High pass filter; this makes only rapid changes in light to activate the circuit (C3 and R1 are approximate). Q6 = An npn transistor to bring the state of the NOR gate input low, which occurs during the lighting event. R2 = Current limit resistor (can be anything over 10 ohms, really). JK flip flop + OR and NOR gates = Logic system. Make sure you power these, and send VCC to VCC and GND to GND (see datasheets for pinouts). To make the JK flip flop a toggle flip flop, certain pins must be grounded or sent to VCC (see datasheet). Q3 = P-enhancement MOSFET that charges C2 when told by flip flop #2; this is where the delay comes from. C2 = Capacitor that charges, creating a delay. R*C should be about 160ms for minolta WL flash. R3 = Resistor that limits current through C2, creating a delay. You may want to use a 250k potentiometer, which will allow you to change the delay. This is useful if you want to use non-minolta flash systems, or something... Q4 = An npn transistor that discharges C2 (the delay system) when it is in its resting state. R4 = Limits current going through Q4 (value is approximate). R9 = Limits current to the base of Q4 (value is approximate). Q7/R10/C4/R12/R11/Q8 = A charge and discharge circuit to reset flip-flop #1 (similar to the other delay circuit). This causes the system to reset itself after about a second (i.e. if the system detects a stray preflash and there is no main flash event). Q5 = P-enhancement MOSFET that triggers SCR1. R8, R7 = Resistors to provide the correct voltage to the thyristor gate (computed from gate triggering voltage and Q5's on state resistance). SCR1 = Silicon controlled rectifier (or thyristor), which will create an electrical path on the flash unit, firing the flash. How the logic works: During the minolta flash sequence, there are maybe ~7 total pulses coming from the camera. The first pulse and last pulse are the important ones, and we want to ignore the middle few. When the first pulse occurs, the circuit detects this (with Q1/Q6) and sets its NOR input to low. The other NOR input is from the JK flip flop #2's JK2-~Q2 output, which is initially low. Thus the NOR gate's output goes high. This causes the OR gate to go high, and toggles JK flip flop #2, causing Q2 to go low. When JK2-Q2 goes low, Q3 is turned on; this causes C2 to charge. During this state, JK2-~Q2 is high and 'locks' the NOR gate; thus any flashes during this period are ignored. When C2 has charged, it will send OR and ORC to high, which toggles both JK flip flops. The NOR gate is unlocked, and any additional flashes will affect the system (and at this point the only remaining flash from the camera is the 'fire main flash' command, the last pulse). With JK1, its JK1-Q1 output becomes low. When the final main pulse is fired from the camera, both OR2 inputs will go low, sneding its output to low. This will turn on Q5 and let current flow to the thyristor SCR1. With SCR1 connected to the flash unit, the flash will fire. One must also determine how the flash unit connects to SCR1. On the ISO hot shoe there are three pins, and on my flash, two of these pins need to be shorted to fire the flash. The center pin should be connected to the high of SCR1, and one of the other pins should be connected to ground. You will need to short these pins to figure out which pins are the ones you need to use. About the capacitors: I just used whatever caps I had, which were 50V rated (you'd only need 5V rated). I used electrolytic caps, which are polarized, so you must be sure to put the +/- pins to the right sides. About the resistors: I just used whatever I had, which were 1/4W 5% resistors. Since there isn't any power going through the system, you can use 1/8W or less. Only R3, R8, and R7 really need to be "exact". I bought most of my parts from www.mouser.com. I got a toggle switch, 9V leads, and a PCB from radioshack (I have yet to construct the final circuit). Anyways these are the parts from mouser I got (I already have resistors, capacitors, and LEDs): U1: Voltage Regulator (qty: 1): TL780-05KCSE3 R3: trim pot (if you are using a pot, qty:1): PTC10LV10-00643-PTC10LV10-254A202 Q1, Q2: Phototransistor (qty: 2 or whatever you want): OP599A Q6, Q4, Q8: NPN Bipolar junction transistor (qty: 3) PN2222A NOR gate (it's a quad, qty:1): CD74HC02E OR Gate (it's a quad, qty:1): M74HC32B1R JK Flip Flop (it's a dual, qty:1): SN74HC109N Q3, Q7, Q5: PMOS enhancement mode: (qty:3) VP2106N3-G SCR1: Thyristor (qty:1): TYN408RG |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 23 April 2007 at 05:12
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The best news I've heard to get around the wireless optical 'morris code' they use in wireless mode. Good job! ------------- Rick |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 23 April 2007 at 07:21
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I'm going to nominate you for diy guru of the flaming year!! This is fantastic. ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 23 April 2007 at 08:11
We are not suppose to post 'chatter'. But what the 'flame'! I will second that! ------------- Rick |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 23 April 2007 at 21:56
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The Vishay TEMD5100 near IR photodiode may be more sensitive Since it only looks at near IR, it will be less sensitive to ambient visible light. It has a wide 130 degree total look angle. Newark Electronics has them in-stock.
Another canidate is the Vishay BPV11F. It is a phototransistor and the 'F' model blocks visible light and so it only sees near IR. It has a 30 degree total look angle. Newark Electronics has them in-stock. ------------- Rick |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 24 April 2007 at 01:28
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Looks like Mouser has the BPV11F (I'm trying to list all components from the same place to save on shipping), through if Newark Electronics has similar components, they would work too. This could be a drop-in replacement. The TEMD5100 actually looks like the receiver my Sigma EF-500 has, so it might be ideal, but it is a photodiode and not a phototransistor, so the detection part of the circuit will need some modification. Also it's a surface mount component, which can be a pain to install.
I also acquired a L14G3 (found it lying around), which has a lens on it. Though I suspect it is the "wrong" type of lens, as the thing claims it has narrow reception. |
Posted By: sooten
Date Posted: 24 April 2007 at 21:55
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So, chych, are you going to start manufacturing these things for your fellow Dyxumers that are less electrical circuit capable than you are? This seems to be a definite need for us.
If you can build these or have these built, and ph0t0man gets his lens rental business going, we would be in great shape! ------------- Scott He who laughs last thinks slowest! |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 25 April 2007 at 03:31
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I was looking around for prices for fabbing PCBs of the circuit, it looks to be like $10/each in small volumes. Right now I'm making mine on a breadboard, which takes way too much time to construct, so if any manufacturing was done, it would be on a PCB (probably would take ~10 minutes to populate one PCB board if skilled, and I estimate an hour for me to construct on breadboard).
Also some sort of case would be needed, which I'm not sure what would work well. But more importantly, I have no idea where you get those ISO hotshoe connectors, which would be needed. Right now I'm machining a plate that fits, and hacking some wires around... this isn't really feasible for manufacturing. I'd estimate that the price of one manufactured unit would be at least $30-$40, just because of the low volume (maybe? I don't know what sort of demand there is for such a thing) and time involved to construct it. Of course DIYing will bring this down, perhaps a kit form could exist too. Though I'm not sure how well one can DIY this with simple equipment. I needed to debug certain parts of the circuit using a realtime data acquisition system ($$$), not just a simple multimeter (luckily I have this equipment at work). Though I guess if the circuit works and the same components are used, all one would really need to know is how to solder (and perhaps a simple multimeter for debugging). |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 25 April 2007 at 06:18
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chych if I can assist you in any way please let me know. Assuming this can work for K/M or Sony, the Canon guys have just as bad a problem. Marketing is my forte', build it and I will make it known.
Aaron almorey@bellsouth.net ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 25 April 2007 at 15:34
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Then is the Canon wireless system similar to Minolta's (I'm not familiar with it)? If I could build such a unit that works with more than one camera type, that would be better (and what about Nikon?).
The first problem I see is sourcing iso hotshoe connectors though. I'll try looking around, but if anyone knows where to get them, I'd like to know. |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 25 April 2007 at 15:54
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I guess that the C/N systems are very similar. I base this guess on the fact that the preflash from popup (not wl) are the same as Minolta because the Wein PND optical sensoes work with these as well.
My son in law has a D70 with a SB800 that if I had a copy of your controller I could certainly test it. There are several Canon users in my church who I feel would love to let me try their setups. I am assuming the hotshoe you are referring to you want to put onto the box with the controller in it? Maybe consider simply a pc sync connection that plugs into any number of light stand mounted oem hot feet with sync connector. You should also think about a 1/4 audio type connector that could plug into a mono light like the radio recievers that are available on ebay. Does that make sense? Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 25 April 2007 at 16:27
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Hmm that's probably a good idea, to use the sync connector. None of my flashes (or my camera) has a sync connector, so I'm not familiar with how these are used, so I'll have to look into that.
I think the Canon E-TTL and Nikon i-TTL flashes in wireless mode are similar to Minolta WL flash, therefore my circuit could potentially work with Canon/Nikon wireless flashes (whereas the simple preflash ignore circuits would fail). Though I'd need to know the timings, and to test it, I'd need those cameras (I have a friend who has a Canon that I could test it with). I could also add a mode that just ignores the first preflash and fires on the second flash, like the wein digital peanut. |
Posted By: sooten
Date Posted: 26 April 2007 at 17:34
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Has anyone found the connectors that fit into the port on the side of the 56/5600 flashes? If we could find this, we could splice in a PC sync and use the digital peanut for the Min/Sony flashes. With the device the chych has designed, and some of these connectors to splice to pc cords, we could have a lot of flexibility in our set-ups and flash uses.
edit:Need to learn to preview my post first to check for proper punctuation! ------------- Scott He who laughs last thinks slowest! |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 26 April 2007 at 17:55
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The 56/5600 can be synced WL, the real function of the "chych miracle" as I see it, is to sync standard auto thyristor flashes while still being able to use WL on 56/5600/EF500/MZ4 type wireless flashes. This then gives you a completely non teathered flash system triggered only by your non competing popup. The variations wound be endless. No sync cords needed.
However, you could sync all the thyristor flashes from one "chych miracle" via daisy chained sync cords. I see multiple "miracles", one for each flash/monolight for no sync cords at all. Like the cheap radio receiver sync controllers. The Wein digital peanuts will not work when you are using WL control out to your WL flash. Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 13 May 2007 at 23:01
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Well, I've finally finished my WL flash trigger. Unfortunately it takes too much time for me to build one of these, and I don't think I have time to make this a product (I'm a busy student!). My current one kind of has some loose connections occasionally and doesn't work, a PCB is really needed for this. But at least it is possible, and the schematic is out there.
In these photos I'm firing my Vivitar with my Sigma EF-500 Super. I put the circuit in a mint tin, though it didn't fit perfectly (I underestimated the thickness of the wires on the bottom of the board. 
 ------------- Sony A700, Sig 24-70/2.8, Sig 15-30/3.5-4.5, KM 50/1.7, Tam 70-200/2.8, Sony F56AM, Sony F36AM |
Posted By: Bor4711
Date Posted: 13 May 2007 at 23:20
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Please post the schematic draw Many thanks,
Rob. ------------- I'm using google translate, sorry for the bad english. C&C is always appreciatie. |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 14 May 2007 at 01:08
I have an older circuit with a description of how it works earlier in this thread. Here's the latest version I'm using:
Description: S1 = On/Off switch V1 = A 9-volt battery, should be enough for U1. U1 = 5-volt Voltage regulator, we need to keep constant reference voltage for timing circuits. C1 = Smoothing capacitor for U1, value can be approximate. Vcc = Logic high voltage, 5V in this case, just to make it clear. R1, LED1 = LED to tell if the thing is on. A 5k resistor give dim light, enough to tell if its on and not suck battery power; would depend on your LED too (I picked up one lying around). Q1 = IR Phototransistor, activates when it detects light. I actually have two of these in my final circuit (in parallel) to improve sensitivity. R2 = Sets a maximum amount of current going through the phototransistor (the ones I used were 50mA max). C3, R3 = 10 hz High pass filter; this makes only rapid changes in light to activate the circuit (C3 and R1 are approximate). Q2 = An npn transistor to bring the state of the NOR gate input low, which occurs during the lighting event. R4 = Current limit resistor (can be anything over 10 ohms, really). JK flip flop + OR and NOR gates = Logic system. C7, R5 = Capacitor that creates the first pulse delay, combined with R5 to create ~160 ms. I use a 250k potentiometer for R5 so I can tweak it, it should be somewhere between 160k and 180k. The capacitor charges from the flip-flop, which can provide the current. Q3 = NMOS that discharges C7 when it needs to be off. R4 = Limits current going through Q3 (value is approximate). R6, C8, R4, Q4 = A charge and discharge circuit to reset flip-flop #1 (similar to the other delay circuit). This causes the system to reset itself after about a second (i.e. if the system detects a stray preflash and there is no main flash event). Q5 = P-enhancement MOSFET that triggers SCR1 when the ending flash event is detected. R7, R8 = Resistors to provide the correct voltage to the thyristor gate (computed from gate triggering voltage and Q5's on state resistance). SCR1 = Silicon controlled rectifier (or thyristor), which will create an electrical path on the flash unit, firing the flash. You can connect more of these in parallel if there are multiple flashes to fire. Parts that I bought from mouser: Voltage Regulator (U1): TL780-05KCSE3 Trim pot (R5): PTC10LV10-00643-PTC10LV10-254A202 Phototransistor (Q1): OP599A NPN transistor (Q2): 2n2222A NOR gate: CD74HC02E OR Gate: M74HC32B1R JK flip flop: SN74HC109N PMOS (Q5): VP2106N3-G NMOS (Q3, Q4): VN2222LL-G SCR (SCR1): TYN408RG ------------- Sony A700, Sig 24-70/2.8, Sig 15-30/3.5-4.5, KM 50/1.7, Tam 70-200/2.8, Sony F56AM, Sony F36AM |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 14 May 2007 at 16:09
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Chych,
I measured the light pulse timing of my 5D/5600HS(D) combo using a photo-transistor. If I recall (I am at work now) there are 7 pulses. The timing from the first to the seventh pulse varies with the flash strength commanded by the 5D when in TTL Mode. When the 5D commands a small power output, the 7th pulse is slower than the 6th pulse when the 5D is commanding a high power output. However, when I put the 5D into Manual Exposure mode, the first to seventh pulse interval was always the same. The interval did not change with commanded flash strength. Note that in Manual Exposure mode the 5D is still in TTL mode. It tells the flash to make up the difference between what you set in the 5D and the ambient light. You get a proper exposure if the required flash output is more than 1/32nd and less than 1/1 of the 5600HS(D) output. How did you get around this timing issue? Did you set the camera to Manual Exposure mode? ------------- Rick |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 14 May 2007 at 16:30
|
I haven't had any failures in the optical flash circuit, unless the camera was trying to do HSS in wireless. I didn't account for this, as I wasn't sure how to! ------------- Sony A700, Sig 24-70/2.8, Sig 15-30/3.5-4.5, KM 50/1.7, Tam 70-200/2.8, Sony F56AM, Sony F36AM |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 14 May 2007 at 23:12
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In wireless mode the flash automatically uses HSS when the camera shutter speed becomes faster than sync speed.
Here are the timing diagrams for the 5D camera and 5600HS(D) flash in wireless mode. This diagram is for the 1/125 sec shutter speed case. As you can see, the flash does not output HSS. These two cases cover the timing min/max since the flash is at minimum output and then at maximum output. The start of the last two pulses is 137ms / 171.6ms for the minimum power output case and 163.8ms / 185.4ms for the maximum power output case. The margin about 7 ms so as to not blank the edge of the main flash. The blanking pulse would be about 168ms. 
This diagram is for the 1/200 sec shutter speed case. As you can see, the flash does outputs the long HSS pulse. These two cases cover the timing min/max since the flash is at minimum output and then at maximum output. The start of the last two pulses is 122ms / 149ms for the minimum power output case and 161.2ms / 170.6ms for the maximum power output case. The margin is negative. A simple blanking pulse will not work for the HSS mode.  ------------- Rick |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 14 May 2007 at 23:42
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Timing diagrams for the 5600HS(D) on-camera is shown below.
This case is for non-HSS where the shutter speed is set at 1/125 sec (at or below sync speed). 
This case is for HSS where the shutter speed is set at 1/200 sec (above sync speed).  ------------- Rick |
Posted By: georgiaboy
Date Posted: 15 May 2007 at 00:52
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CHYCH,
If you daisy chained three or four flashes off of scr1 would it cause a problem? Aaron ------------- "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in..." |
Posted By: chych
Date Posted: 15 May 2007 at 01:57
|
MojoRick - Those timing diagrams do give some insight into this. Perhaps the best way to do this is to detect the first seven rising edges, and then fire the flash on the eighth, though this would require a PIC to do (unless you want to make a mess with counters); also would fail if the trigger misses a pulse accidentally. I'm not sure what to do about HSS, because I would think that the flash would have to support the ability to fire for a long period of time. I was under the impression that all those cheap auto-flashes weren't really meant for HSS.
georgiaboy - You probably don't want to put more than one flash on a thyristor (scr1). However you can put more thyristors in parallel, and have each one fire an individual flash. ------------- Sony A700, Sig 24-70/2.8, Sig 15-30/3.5-4.5, KM 50/1.7, Tam 70-200/2.8, Sony F56AM, Sony F36AM |
Posted By: MojoRick
Date Posted: 15 May 2007 at 06:16
You are quite correct, my bad! This application does not use HSS since cheap secondary flashes cannot support it anyway. So, for my measured data, I would need 167.3 ms +/- 1% over a temperature range of +/-20 Celsius. Therefore, I would need to buy a high quality 10k cermet trimmer pot able to do about 10 turns and to have a temperature coefficient (TC) of +100 ppm/degree Celsius. That would be in series to a high quality fixed resistor with a low TC. To help compensate, I would need a high quality polyester 1 micro-farad capacitor with a negative TC of less than 1% over +/- 20 degree Celsius. Of course as the components age, the timing will shift due some more. The user would have to be instructed to give a 1/8th turn on the trimmer pot to re-adjust. I wonder how the 5600HS(D) timing varies with temperature? It would be nice to have more margin for timing error due to temperature and aging. ------------- Rick |