IMPORTANT; First frame black issue
Printed From: Dyxum.com
Category: Equipment forums
Forum Name: A-mount APS-C
Forum Description: For discussion of all Minolta and Sony a-mount APS-C cameras
URL: https://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9844
Printed Date: 09 October 2024 at 17:33
Topic: IMPORTANT; First frame black issue
Posted By: jstartin
Subject: IMPORTANT; First frame black issue
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 22:38
|
New threads on what sounds like the now widely experienced "first shot black" problem continue to appear. I suggest all 5D and 7D users read the information contained in this current thread on DPR:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1035&message=21504065 - http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1035&message=21504065 and especially the post from http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1035&message=21515679 - "pvelz" For German readers, see the source thread: http://www.photoscala.de/node/2387 - http://www.photoscala.de/node/2387 It does increasing seem that our cameras have an inherent design error that will, sooner or later, lead to this problem on most of them, apart from the very last 5D production. Perhaps Dyxum members should take an active role, along with other user groups and internet forums, in pressing KM/Sony for a recall. |
Replies:
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 23:04
|
Thanks for the info.
Unfortunately, this isn't new to me since i already stated that must be a design flaw since it's added in 5D service manual and well documented by KM and so many cameras are affected. I doubt there is any chance for a recall, since most cameras are out of warranty or the issue will not be evident until some point when the warranty will expire (and i think Sony have just enough lost with various recalls recently :( ) I will go even further and share some of my correspondence with a former minolta rep; KM had big big problems with various issues on 7D (not so many with 5D) and they have lost significant money and resources in providing service to 7D owners. According to this KM rep KM has lost a big deal of "enthusiasm" for photo imaging section in the past, especially because they simply didn't have adequate support network and resources. Now, on the bright side, i been notified today that one of my 7D that i have sent for exactly the same reason is fixed and i can expect it relatively soon. After i receive it, and if it will be in perfect good condition i will send my second 7D for servicing (again this issue). ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: Hobgoblin
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 23:04
|
Should we all write letters to Sony whether we have suffered this problem or not? Might be an idea to let them know that people are aware of what is the true situation.
Don't forget that we in the UK can also rely on sale of goods legislation and can claim against the retailer for up to six years after purchase. ------------- http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b87/therealhobgoblin/ - See my Galleries here - comments welcome |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 23:22
|
The best thing IMHO would be if we (7D / 5D owners) may organize ourself and act together. Not only various forum members in separate forums, but rather one international initiative.
If not for any other reason then for pressing Sony to declare them self about this issue. Eventually, this may "sound bad" for Sony marketing section and they may (but i don't count too much on this) offer something too all users affected by this issue. ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: ab012
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 23:25
|
kiklop
i have downloaded the service manuals but have been having a hard time locating the exact reference... can you tell me which document it is in? (and page number even if possible) ------------- Bernard fun fun fun |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 23:31
|
7D reapir manual that i have (and that is provided here for download is most probably old revision and this isnfo isn't listed. But in the 5D repair manual (also provided here for download) you can find this in "2186 Supplementary Information" pdf file;
" symptom: Unexposure at the first time after leaving for a certain period. (Error 58) Cause: Pressure to the Shutter assy cam roller was applied for a certain period. Measure: AF charge assy (2186-0521-02) and shutter assy (2186-0210) ex-change " ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 23:37
|
BTW, you can see the picture and parts involved mentioned in german article in "2181 Parts Modification List" pdf file in 7D service manual ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: jstartin
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 23:50
Yes, the information in the service manual supplement has been available for some time, and I have quoted it in several threads. My first impression from the new DPR thread was that some other KM document had surfaced. Unfortunately I don't read German well enough to be sure.
I also doubt that a general recall is likely, but if KM were, indeed, continuing to manufacture and distribute cameras knowning that there was a latent fault then there must be some liability under international law. It is increasingly clear that this is not just a few cameras (or even many cameras)with substandard manufacturing, but an error in the design of a part. I am not sure about the rest of the EU, or the rest of Europe, but in the UK the law provides for some redress for 6 years from purchase if it can be shown that failure is the result of an inherent design defect (rather than the bad luck of having an example that just breaks down early). Assembling the information that gives proof of such a defect might therefore be important. |
Kiklop wrote:Posted By: MarkSangenito
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 00:06
|
I had a question. I have had about 2 or so black frames happen, i turn off the camera and turn it back on and its good to go. However...its obviously happening. I am scared it is going to get worse, it is still under warranty, do you think I should try to have it repaired even though I doubt they would be able to recreate the problem, just if they see that this part is in it?
what would you all do? |
Posted By: ab012
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 00:07
|
Thanks kiklop
This is extremely disappointing and discouraging. ------------- Bernard fun fun fun |
Posted By: omerbey
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 00:13
| kiklop how much does this repair cost and where can it be made? |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 00:42
I don't know yet but will let you know as soon i found it out. My estimates is 100-150 € but this is just my guess based on some previous reports. This one is less than year old but since i bought it second handed i didn't have original invoke and the warranty card was not filled properly so i'm not counting on any discount. It's more than one month since i have sent my 7D (and that was supposed to be a privileged process since i made some contacts with local sony reps :( ) and just today have been notified that is fixed and it is supposed to be sent to Croatia (is still in Germany). ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 00:46
If it's still under warranty i wouldn't hesitate to send it for repair. This is a documented issue, and they will know what's wrong with it. Also, keep in mind, that we don't know for how long spare parts will be available, so hesitating may be too risky IMHO. ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: craiginscotland
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 01:27
|
I've got 2 months left on my warrenty and i'm seriously thinking about just sending my 7D away and telling them i've had this problem, even though i haven't. They clearly know the problem is there and probably don't even test for it anymore. This way it's fixed and i don't spend my days wondering when it will happen.
Either that or i sell up and get something else, which i really don't want to do. ------------- http://www.pbase.com/craiginscotland - http://www.pbase.com/craiginscotland |
Posted By: paulofessel
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 02:19
|
Babelfish gave me a fairly decent translation of the text into english, and from the information I've read seems that when you send your camera into service the culprit for the defect will be replaced by a redesigned and corrected part (2181-0500-02 replaces 2181-0500-01), making our cameras perfectly usable for years to come. OTOH, who knows whether there are more project problems just waiting for us in these years to come... :(
Moreover, those who have already sent their cameras near march 2006 - when parts were lacking all over - and are experiencing the BF problem again had probably the shutter assembly replaced by the faulted version of the mechanism which hadn't the correction applied at the time. So when sending our cameras to be serviced, it would be interesting to know which part numbers our service shops are using now. Something like this raises yet another question: why redesigning the shutter mecanism from scratch, instead of using the time-proven shutters of Maxxum 7 and Maxxum 9 (or even 700si and 800si) ? []'s Paulo ------------- http://public.fotki.com/Zarastro/ - Fotki α900+some FF glass α700+some DC glass KM5D, R.I.P. 
|
Posted By: jaje
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 04:56
Hi Paulo, I remember David Kilpatrick saying he talked to some Minolta engineers who said they needed to design a special shutter --> smaller, lighter, gentler --> to avoid problems with anti-shake. Jay |
Posted By: wass
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 07:58
|
As I understand it correctly this problem was not rectified until sony bought KM's camera stock. I am lucky (or maybe not) that I have not experienced this problem. I have extended warranty, I wonder what they will say when I tell them that the manufacturer screwed up and I would like my components replaced before the problem exists.
"It is stated that, irrespective of use, eventually all or most 5D and 7D bodies will fail from the same error, the statement made is that 1 in 4 so far already seems to have been coming back for repair. The problem is a design problem, every camera will eventually fail due to it." There is no question form the memo that we need to do something. I hope that someone from Sony is reading this. While it is in getting repaired wouldn't it be nice if they could "upgrade" the sensor to the new a100 ;) |
Posted By: Turerkan
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 09:18
then the life expectancy for a lucky camera is far below 100k.. man i got 22k shots already.. i can't afford a new body, and i don't expect turkish KM service to be of use. i have to sit and wait for my cam to die slowly :( ------------- http://tinyurl.com/chaokc - Self moderate. http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/topic45171&get=last.html - Use Gimp. http://tinyurl.com/cj4qq8 - View My Photos. |
Posted By: jstartin
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 10:34
According to the service manuals the camera log errors internally. The log can be read by a service agent with the correct software. Failure of the shutter to actuate within a reasonable time, which must be what causes the "first shot black problem", is Error 58. So, there should be no need for the error to be repeated in test for service personnel to "believe" that it is a problem - they should just read the log. They should be able to tell if you have had it happen just once.
They only have to check the camera error log! |
Posted By: paulofessel
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 11:13
Turerkan, http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9850&get=last#80345 - see this link . There is always the alternative to send your camera to the E.U. or United States. The advantage to the U.S. solution is its relatively low cost. Moreover, when did you get your camera? Did you get it new or otherwise? If it's not new, do you know whether the camera has already been into a KM service shop? []'s Paulo ------------- http://public.fotki.com/Zarastro/ - Fotki α900+some FF glass α700+some DC glass KM5D, R.I.P.
|
Posted By: Turerkan
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 11:50
|
paulofessel: i got my camera at 2005's summer (if i recall correctly) and it has never seen KM service:( ------------- http://tinyurl.com/chaokc - Self moderate. http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/topic45171&get=last.html - Use Gimp. http://tinyurl.com/cj4qq8 - View My Photos. |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 12:27
|
Just two thoughts i've been thinkig of.
Did you noticed the date of this article? It has taken more than one month before most of us has seeing this; to make things even more complicated Japanese market and users communities is another one that is almost in a whole new dimension. Who knows, maybe folks in Japan have already resolved this ? --of course just my speculation. That's one of the shortcoming of having smaller customers base (compared to Canon for example) and separated communities with almost no info exchange. And yet another speculation; there has been a rumor that KM has reached high development status of 7D replacement and many of us have hoped that we may actually see this body under Sony name. Well, if this was true (and i tend to believe it was) then it's pretty logical that Sony didn't want to release a new "problematic" body but has rather decided to make a new body from the scratch. The worst thing for Sony would be releasing a body with unreliable parts and design. ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: paulofessel
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 12:27
|
I suggest you try to talk to your local KM service representative. If it's useless, then sending the camera to the EU or the US may be an option.
The only time I had to use Sony-KM's service here in Brazil they were very helpful and repaired the camera as soon as the parts arrived - in the case, the shutter button assembly of Maxxum 700si. I'll check here if they already know about BF problem. []'s Paulo ------------- http://public.fotki.com/Zarastro/ - Fotki α900+some FF glass α700+some DC glass KM5D, R.I.P.
|
Posted By: Sanjuro
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 12:31
|
This error 58 is soundidng like our digital cancer.
I have not experienced that but if all bodies will have it then maybe I should sell it, my warranty is out and to repair it will cost a lot here, for sure. I just hope Sony release another DSLR so I could change.... ------------- Rgds Sanjuro "I paint objects as I think them, not as I see them." --Pablo Picasso |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 12:42
That's actually another solution that i would like to see; Sony releases a new body in the "7D class" and offer a significant discount for anyone is willing to exchange the old 7D for it. ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: paulofessel
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 12:42
I couldn't agree more with you. Suddenly, having to wait until february/march in order to get some news about the A10/7Dii/whatever has became a "not so bad" idea. []'s Paulo ------------- http://public.fotki.com/Zarastro/ - Fotki α900+some FF glass α700+some DC glass KM5D, R.I.P.
|
Posted By: Frankman
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 12:50
|
My 5D guarantee runs out in 21 days time. To date, I haven't experienced this problem (touch wood). Perhaps the mods can make a "sticky" somewhere on this site so this information is available to both current and future Dyxum viewers if/when they experience the problem. May be valuable when dealing with Sony service in other parts of the world.
Frank |
Posted By: alexmts
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 14:17
|
My 5D died after appr. 23000 shots.
At first all frames started to be black, then they became not black but with wrong colours. Now it's in service so I'm using film :) |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 14:50
I hope this http://www.dyxum.com/columns/other/First_Black_Frame/First_Black_Frame.asp - short summary may serve the purpose ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 18:07
| I have a late 5D 12-17-2005.. Is there any ser.number #01509070, that would be considered safe and had the new parts installed in it new from the factory? I have about 3000 shots and so far so good.. Am I safe? Thanks George |
Posted By: ab012
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 07:29
|
Thanks for the writeup Kiklop.
I particularly resonate with this: " Minolta was always in position to relay their business on faithful support by their customers and minoltians all around the word. For this reason I need to express my sadness about the fact that they apparently were aware of the severity of this fault but they kept it secret. Many 7D (and 5D) cameras are now out of warranty and repair cost of an inherited production flaw will now be up to our pocket. Minoltians haven't deserved this IMHO." This issue (which luckily shouldnt affect me), if true, is enough for me to SAY NO TO KM CAMERAS. OTOH The optimistic view though is now that Sony is in charge instead of KM things are looking more positive. ------------- Bernard fun fun fun |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 10:50
I guess KM (and sony) do have this info, since they know at which point they have started used the new, properly dimensioned part in 5D production process. But i don't have this info and i guess it will be very hard to find it out. The only date that we have in this respect is November 07. 2005; this is the date stated in the 5D repair manual describing this problem so i guess that at that time KM has already started producing 5D with the new part incorporated. ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 14:26
|
Kiklop,
Thanks you! I hope your right and they didn't just keep production going as is do to the fact that knew they would be selling off to Sony * all about the $$$ you know*.. In my way of thinking this is most likely the case but I hope I'm wrong.. I my have one of the good ones if I'm wrong! Again thanks for the info! George
|
Posted By: MEANSTREAK
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 15:55
I wonder if they will replace it if you just send it in without actually experiancing the problem. I imagine they look for the code error to verify, but if it is ineveitable for it to fail, you would think they would just replace it upon request. My dilema is that I own multiple 5&7Ds... by having more than one body some of them get very little use. I have third party extended warranties with some, but I'm not sure if those places will have parts. I believe Mack does their own repairs but I wonder if they have access to parts. If they don't, they have the option to substitute a camera of equal (fair market) value or possibly a refund. I can just imagine them handing me a body of equal value from a different system. BTW... Does anyone know if any 7Ds were made with the correct part? |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 16:40
|
Unfortunately, AFAIK there isn't any official policy about this issue( we must bear in mind that this isn't officially confirmed flaw ) and this can lead to different approach about such requests in different cases. They can, but they aren't forced to fix this problem :(
There are many facts that doesn't help us at all; KM has sold the business to sony (and they certanly don't care that much as in case of original Sony products), support network is poor and slow, both 7D and 5D are discontinued products ... AFAIK, all 7D (if not serviced after purchase) do have the same, problematic part. Only newer 5D are at some point made with appropriate part; this is at least what i have understood so far. ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: puki33
Date Posted: 08 January 2007 at 16:30
|
Hi,
I have to say that I'm deeply dissapointed by the current situation with my camera. I've taken my 5D to repair 4 moths from now, mid September .... After 2 moths the service (the camera has been shipped to Germany) told me that they can not fix the problem, and I'll get my money back. Well... it is January now and nothing happened :( I'm calling KM and Sony every week and they keep telling me to wait... :( Also I don;t know which way to continue. I'm not brave enough to buy another KM camera, but also reluctant on buying a SOny as it is f.ing expensive. But what than? Should I sell my lenses and buy a Nikon. I was proud of having a Minolta, but I think that is over. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 08 January 2007 at 16:46
| Yes! That is exactly what I would do.. At min. a Nikon D80 but would shoot for a D200 with just the kit lens until $$$$ would allow me some more lenses! I have been with Minolta for over 30 years..My .02 worth! George |
Posted By: tmoreau
Date Posted: 09 January 2007 at 16:30
|
I had a 5d repaired in August for this issue, it was bought new from B&H Jan-06 and had about 12k frames. It does worry me a little, my 7D that I bought in Aug-06 is getting near 5k frames with no problems... at least there is warning when you develop this problem and its not typically a sudden complete failure.
I will be much more relaxed when there is a replacement Sony on the market thats bigger than a ipod nano. Who wants these miniturized cameras anyway? They're painful to use with real glass. ------------- http://www.pbase.com/tmoreau/fav - Gallery http://www.pbase.com/tmoreau/image/74317706 - Lineup (10-20/28/50/90/100-200) |
Posted By: tmoreau
Date Posted: 09 January 2007 at 18:01
|
You know, based on what info is availible is sounds like...
Jun-05 Sony-Minolta cooperate in product development Nov-05 Minolta admits knowledge of design-flaw by publishing it in 5D manual Jan-06 7D Service manual includes black frame information Jan-06 Minolta folds, forcing Sony buyout (if they wanted any part of the DSLR and lens mount they have already invested themselves in) ???-06 "Black frame" repairs were still being made using original spec (defective) parts Mar-06 Sony threw-out all original spec parts, redesigned to rev-02, and issued refunds during the process Aug-06 Sony repairs begin with redesigned -02 parts As with this entire Sony takeover, they arent saying squat. Draw your own conclusions. ------------- http://www.pbase.com/tmoreau/fav - Gallery http://www.pbase.com/tmoreau/image/74317706 - Lineup (10-20/28/50/90/100-200) |
Posted By: Ouscazz Photo
Date Posted: 12 January 2007 at 10:22
|
FYI.
The Swedish Konica Minolta Support just confirmed that they will repair my 5D that suffers from the First Black Frame problem. I bought my camera in october 2005 and therefore it is under EU consumersrights(?)law. At first they would'nt aggree that there's a problem with the F.B.F. They where a little "pissed of" when they read my e-mail in wich I clearly stated where in the service manual they could find the error-information. These manuals are not for public use they claimed, I did'nt reveal my source (Dyxum). Is it authorized by KM/Sony to have the service manual on Dyxum..?. ------------- http://www.flickr.com/photos/ouscazz/ - My Gallery Canon EOS 5D - Canon 70-200/4L USM - Canon 100/2.8L IS USM Macro |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 12 January 2007 at 10:34
No, we don't have any permission to publish these; but, since KM has proven to be unfair to their customers in many ways i really don't care. I wish it was different; i wish KM has done more for their customers once they decided to sell the whole thing to Sony .. but they didn't. For those who didn't know that, dyxum had problems with KM in the past too. The reason was more or less the same; we did provided 7D user manuals for download while KM didn't provided them on-line !! And they requested to remove pdf manuals which as you can see are still available for download. While we are against piracy of any form, there is a limit where customers are forced to acts like this one. ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: Ouscazz Photo
Date Posted: 12 January 2007 at 10:47
|
Thanks Kiklop, I really appreciate and support your curage. Thanks to you, and the information you Dyxumers provide, KM will actually repair my camera!
For all you EU-citizens that is under "EU comsumesright laws", be hardheaded against KM/Sony.. It did pay off for me. Two weeks of e-mailing back and forth.. and they finally realized that I was not going to give up.. And of course, some threats that I would drag the whole thing to the cunsumersrights organization if they continued to stick their heads in the sand.. ------------- http://www.flickr.com/photos/ouscazz/ - My Gallery Canon EOS 5D - Canon 70-200/4L USM - Canon 100/2.8L IS USM Macro |
Posted By: Hobgoblin
Date Posted: 12 January 2007 at 14:48
That's the way to do it!! ------------- http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b87/therealhobgoblin/ - See my Galleries here - comments welcome |
Posted By: Ouscazz Photo
Date Posted: 12 January 2007 at 16:32
Betcha! I'm into sales myself and I've learned from my customers.. The hard way.. ;o) Seriously.. KM/Sony will - without hesitation - take every chance not to spend money on you.. But if there are laws to protect you as a customer, KM/Sony is way out of line if they reject to repair cameras (or whatever stuff sold) that suffers from design flaws.. You just need to know your rights... Just go for it! ------------- http://www.flickr.com/photos/ouscazz/ - My Gallery Canon EOS 5D - Canon 70-200/4L USM - Canon 100/2.8L IS USM Macro |
Posted By: Zack
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 03:04
| Will this problem cause any damage to the camera if it is not repaired? |
Posted By: Patrik 5D
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 18:35
| I'm wondering that to since my 5D have gotten the problem for the secound time. It's still under warrenty but since the problem doesn't occur very often this time I haven't decided if its worth it to send it back in the mail to have it repaired again... |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 19:21
Hard to tell IMHO; i have one 7D with this problem but isn't getting any worse; it happens from time to time for almost a year now. On the other hand, my second 7D has started exhibiting this problem suddenly and in about 2 months i wasn't in position to use the camera at all. Not to mention that there are many 7D about 2 years old that did not exhibit the problem. ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: digitalshooter
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 13:39
|
Zack dont think so. You will probably go until total failure, which could be a long time or next shot. Sorry.
Patrik 5D, in the US I was told by the Regional Sony Customer Service that parts are becoming fewer and fewer. Its a hard call because I called after sending my 7D in and they simply told me: "If you are not pleased with what we did, we will buy your camera back." My camera has 4 years of original KM warranty on it, so I plan to make it last until a new announcement hopefully soon. BTW I firmly believe that once a new camera is announced to either replace the 7D or 5D, that parts will cease to be available. Just my opinion. |
Posted By: nigelbrooks
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 13:47
|
Guess we're a little luckier with consumer protection laws in Europe (is Ralph Nader still campaigning for consumers in the US?)
Parts have to be available for (I think it is) seven years from the date of last general(retail)supply. So Sony, unless they make VERY generous buy-back/upgrade offers have this 'problem' until 2013 at the earliest. ------------- I've been away! |
Posted By: digitalshooter
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 14:36
Ralph Nader, wow blast from the past! I think he is still actively trying to get the Ford Pinto taken off of the US streets! I hope you are right and they are hoarding the parts for you guys, but according again to what I was told by Sony, they believe a camera life is 7 years. Also they are not having any parts made so when current supplies go, they are gone. I realize you guys have better laws, maybe after they totally cut us off here, ship the parts to you guys, then they will become available as after market parts to all. Doubt it though, unfortunately if KM had not of been acquired, we probably would not be in this boat! Thanks and good luck! |
Posted By: ewsnc
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 19:10
| I wonder if this first black frame issue has anything to do with the way the carmera is stored. Laying camera flat on its base or pointing lens downward will surely exert different gravity stress to the problemic part. Maybe we should poll. |
Posted By: digitalshooter
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 19:25
|
This issue is described with proper repair in the repair manual from KM.
Its a bad piece. |
Posted By: Turerkan
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 19:32
24000 clicks, no problems, when stored lens mostly points upwards. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/chaokc - Self moderate. http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/topic45171&get=last.html - Use Gimp. http://tinyurl.com/cj4qq8 - View My Photos. |
Posted By: goodwrench
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 07:55
|
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1035&message=21904255 - from dp review
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fca.konicaminolta.jp%2Finformation%2Fimportant%2Falpha%2F&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools - Translation This is brand new as it is dated 02/02/07 Garth ------------- My grab bag - A850, KM 17-35, SAL 50 1.4, Min 85 1.4 RS G, 200 2.8 HS APO G - All in a Slingshot 100 |
Posted By: Pekka L
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 07:59
|
Just saw this in dpreview:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1035&message=21904255 - Link Link to announcement in japanese: http://ca.konicaminolta.jp/information/important/alpha/ - Announcement Edit: Sorry, another thread appeared while I was writing. Please use it. |
Posted By: TheBeej
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 08:12
|
Wow. ------------- http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjenright - Flickr Nikon D700 | S50/1.4 | S24-70/2.8 | N70-200/2.8 |
Posted By: jkp1
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 08:18
|
Perculiar, i never gets the err-message, only black/blue frame ------------- Unused stuff in stock: A700, 24-105, 28-135, Sony A100, beercan, 100-200, Sony 70-200f2.8 + teleconverter |
Posted By: TheBeej
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 08:19
|
Wow. ------------- http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjenright - Flickr Nikon D700 | S50/1.4 | S24-70/2.8 | N70-200/2.8 |
Posted By: gian
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 09:19
|
Nice!!!!!
Thanks! I've saved it as PDF (you never know... :-P) I will send my 5D for repair with a cheap 256MB flash card with my collection of black frames .MRW and .THM, I will quote the "Error 58" of the repair manual, and attach this document too. Oh, and a copy of the warranty card of course. I have good hopes that I will get my 5D repaired now :-) ------------- ::: Gianluca ::: http://www.gianlucatristo.it/ - Gallery ::: Life is once, forever - Henri Cartier-Bresson |
Posted By: Dunadan
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 09:22
|
I don't understand much from this translation... what does it mean? Sony repairs Black Frame for free? and camre can be without guarantee? ------------- Jakub |
Posted By: ab012
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 09:47
|
Sounds excellent and finally a reasonable response.
Hopefully this is offered to the rest of the world (and i cant see why not) ------------- Bernard fun fun fun |
Posted By: Frankman
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 10:11
| A fellow member of an Australian forum had his 5D exchanged for an A100 last week. AS failure, camera still under warranty. Looks promising for those with issues, especially if Sony is covering out-of-warranty repairs. Hope they follow suite world-wide. |
Posted By: nigelbrooks
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 10:35
|
It's the first time that I have seen a public admission of the fault. I hope that Sony co-erce KM into offering this free repair worldwide it will do a lot to enhance Sony's reputation and build real brand loyalty for whatever comes next.
GO ON SONY / KM - YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE. ------------- I've been away! |
Posted By: polossatik
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:06
|
That translation is soooo good.
"No soldier/finishing, understanding and cooperating are granted, the fish you say to ask." ROFL ------------- 7D / A580 and assorted lenses from 8mm fish to 1000mm / Minolta 7s Rangefinder / |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:57
|
Wow, good news indeed.
However, I'm pretty much confused here; this is a KM website and we are supposed to contact KM ? Isn't anything related to KM photographic equipment now under Sony responsibility (and Sony is actually doing any repairs)? Anyway, glad to see that KM has for the first time confirmed the problem officially I'm more than confident that this was "forced" by many reports from 7D / 5D users on various sites and forums around the net (including our small community of course). I have updated our dedicated page about http://www.dyxum.com/columns/other/First_Black_Frame/First_Black_Frame.asp - this problem and will try to keep it updated. ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: keith_h
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 12:04
|
Corresponding product
* α-7 DIGITAL * αSweet DIGITAL I guess the αSweet Digital is the 5D? ------------- http://gallery.heinrich.id.au - My gallery http://gallery.heinrich.id.au/gear - A700 x2, A99, other stuff |
Posted By: David_S
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 12:16
Yes it is, that's why I have two of them :) ------------- One day at a time |
Posted By: wietse
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 12:19
| I have this problem for the second time. My first black frame I had two weeks after my holliday in dec 2005 (camera still under warranty). Konica Minolta send him back (couldn't find anything). In aug 2006 problem was persistent. Sony repaird the camera for €171. Now two weeks after my holliday (>2000 pics)after about 2 weeks not using the camera black frame again and from the first time persistent. The camera is now in Bremen. I let you know their reaction. |
Posted By: digitalshooter
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 13:10
|
Kiklop,
Sorry for the new post, just did not want that positive info to get burried. Thanks DS |
Posted By: nigelbrooks
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 13:26
|
Thread on DPReview says to expect official local announcements tomorrow (3rd February).
See the sixth post in http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1035&thread=21904255 - this thread . ------------- I've been away! |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 13:59
|
Now when KM has finally confirmed the issue (once again, it's a production flaw !!!) i would again strongly suggest to all 5D / 7D users to contact KM or sony and request a free repair. Please note, that this repair is consisting in shutter mechanism replacement as well and all that comes with it (complete camera check-up, calibration and adjustment) ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: sdblanchet
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 14:02
I have been asking myself the same question so here is my situation. I have over 10000 clicks and my camera (7D, bought 05-05-05) in mostly stored in the bag with lens pointing downward |
Posted By: digitalshooter
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 14:06
Kiklop, Would we all not benefit from addressing our letters to the same place? a group effort? one common letter that quotes this repsonse? one person? Do we have such? What is scary is that we do not know, I guess until tomorrow, what they intend to do. |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 14:16
You must be aware that this is a production flaw and is there .. "sleeping" and waiting the "right" time. We can now discuss our habits on how we store our cameras, we can clean our battery contacts, we can press DOF preview buttons prior turning our camera ON ...; all this may be helpful or not depending on how lucky we are. This official announcement is certainly encouraging (i would prefer to see something official from Sony too since they will actually handle our cameras), it does confirm what many of us have repeated over and over: that KM has made a mistake in production and need to get this sorted for free. Now, the question is, was Sony aware of this? Repairing so many cameras isn't really cheap, especially considering that repair does include a new shutter mechanism. Anyway, this announcement certainly makes future of our cameras a bit brighter. ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 14:21
We are in much better position now when KM has confirmed this issue. I'm pretty much certain that recent KM request to remove manuals is part of the same story but fortunately for us this issue has gained too much interest to be ignored by KM (and Sony i believe). Dyxum may done a small part here too, as many other Minolta websites and forums all around the net. At this moment, we need to wait just a little bit more and see how will KM handle this. I will certainly try to focus on this issue on this website. ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: digitalshooter
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 14:24
|
I dont understand why people keep posting things that it is not, it is verified in the manual that this is a problem and specifies a fix!
I hope they dont turn this over to Precision! Absolutely, Dyxum and many of us thru other sources. Now even the nay sayers will reap benefit! |
Posted By: ab012
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 14:33
|
I dont think it is suprising that this does not have much prominance on Sony websites.
As this is a product recall it is understandable that Sony dont want it associated with them marketing wise (but will carry out the repair). One may also guess that it is likely the repair costs incurred by Sony will be charged back to KM - there is likely a clause in the buy-out/service agreement that any significant recalls are KM's liability (this is pretty much the norm for buy-outs etc AFAIK). ------------- Bernard fun fun fun |
Posted By: jstartin
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 15:17
Although this doesn't alter the fact that the error should not occur at all, and that there is no doubt about the underlying cause, I have had the same thoughts about the contribution of storage orientation. My 5D is usually kept in its bag lens down. I have had one solitary occurrence of Error 58 (now confirmed from the single entry in the camera log), about 9 months ago. On that occasion the bag had been lying on its back for a day or so! The "association" is, of course, well within the range of simple coincidence, and we shouldn't found a new superstition. |
Posted By: nigelbrooks
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 15:20
|
KM is still trading don't forget, they just don't make (great) cameras anymore. Why would Sony want to give this any prominence?, It doesn't affect any of 'their' products.
A 'fly on the wall' might have heard. "OK KM production, you screwed up your QC, now go fix it or else we'll invoke liabilities clause ABC123". Hope that tomorrow really does bring good news and 'relief to sufferers'. ------------- I've been away! |
Posted By: jstartin
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 15:35
|
In view of its importance, and as a way of acknowledging the contribution made by the DPR poster "pvelz",I though it might be appropriate to record here the full content of his recent post on DPR.
Here it is:
|
Posted By: kiklop
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 15:37
|
Well done jstartin.
pvelz has certainly deserved our gratitude for all his efforts ! ------------- We may have http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/unawsered_forum_topics_date-range13.html - questions waiting for answers ! |
Posted By: jstartin
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 16:44
I am sure that you, and Dyxum, have also helped put this on the KM management agenda. So thanks, too. Now let's see what the official English announcement really says, but I think it will be most encouraging. |
Posted By: rhork
Date Posted: 03 February 2007 at 04:26
|
Well here it 'tis (US Site)
http://ca.konicaminolta.com/information/20070202/01_en.html |
Posted By: nigelbrooks
Date Posted: 03 February 2007 at 09:32
|
http://support.sony-europe.com/DIME/KM/km.asp?l=en%20 - Here's the list of KM European service agents if you need them.
------------- I've been away! |
Posted By: richardn
Date Posted: 03 February 2007 at 09:46
It is indeed, no product recall. I haven't experienced the problem yet and obviously hope I never do. However, I would be happier if I could send my pair off to get a known potential fault removed before it actually happens. That said, it is good news for all you guys whose cameras have "exhibited" it. Kudos and huge respect to Pvelz and Kiklop as well as anybody else who has been a thorn in the side to KM and Sony until they took this action. Thanks guys. |
Posted By: Bryman
Date Posted: 03 February 2007 at 11:58
|
Good news indeed!! While I haven't yet experienced this problem, my 7D is rapidly approaching it's 10,000th frame so last week I'd bought a 3rd party extended warranty. Should cover the other dreaded failures like AS, shutter etc (and drops, auto accidents,clumsy family members getting their hands on my "precioussss" and so on)
Good that KM have owned up, even though it was through the action of pressure groups and determined individuals. Thanks again. Brian. |
Posted By: digitalshooter
Date Posted: 03 February 2007 at 14:08
I think by exhibiting they mean constant failure, because mine exhibits it, randomly and Precision said we could not see it happen so no repair was made for it. But yes, at least it is something. |
Posted By: nigelbrooks
Date Posted: 03 February 2007 at 14:51
|
Ed
My understanding is that any 'err' message is logged by the camera so all Precision have to do is to read the fault diagnostics log. If you get the problem again, tell them to read the log and fix the problem. ------------- I've been away! |
Posted By: KonicaA3
Date Posted: 03 February 2007 at 14:57
|
Id really be interested to see some of the results of State side Dyxumers who send their error 58 5D & 7D out of warranty cameras. Seems the good old US of A has a very poor history of warranty. ------------- Sony A77ii | Sigma APO 75-300 F4-5.6 | Minolta 70-210 F4 | Tamron 18-250 F3.5-6.3 Di |Minolta 35-70 F4 | Minolta 100-200 F4.5 | Sigma 18-125 F3.5-5.6 http://www.flickr.com/people/imagesbykeith/ |
Posted By: Ivan Lee
Date Posted: 03 February 2007 at 16:43
|
That´s very nice!
But I have a question... Any Sony from anywhere in the world MUST repair the camera for free? Because I live in Brazil and everything here is more complicated... |
Posted By: digitalshooter
Date Posted: 03 February 2007 at 22:38
Well, it should well have been logged this last time, but they said they could not get it to do it, so no repairs. I believe that is why they reflash everything. |
Posted By: KonicaA3
Date Posted: 03 February 2007 at 23:33
|
All they have to do is clear the log and POOF! no more error 58. No what is needed is a recall. ------------- Sony A77ii | Sigma APO 75-300 F4-5.6 | Minolta 70-210 F4 | Tamron 18-250 F3.5-6.3 Di |Minolta 35-70 F4 | Minolta 100-200 F4.5 | Sigma 18-125 F3.5-5.6 http://www.flickr.com/people/imagesbykeith/ |
Posted By: Elgsdyr
Date Posted: 04 February 2007 at 01:14
|
Delete this post ------------- Yours etc. Torsten Balle Koefoed |
Posted By: craigchinohills
Date Posted: 04 February 2007 at 04:07
|
I don't believe they've announced any particulars on a program to deal with the issue yet. As timing is everything (not necessarily good but coincidental in my case), I'd had mine in shipment when the announcements started. Remains to be seen what they actually do. I'm not sure what "process controls" are in place yet (ever?) at Precision to actually deal with problems as opposed to keep turn arounds (and billable events?) up?
I would expect a generic flash of the memory that hides evidence of flaws could be painted as very suspicious if repair/replacements aren't dealt with well. Hopefully everybody in the chain is going to be on the same page - make the custmers happy! |
Posted By: Alex 007
Date Posted: 04 February 2007 at 12:31
|
Hello Folks!
I'm also an Dynax 7D owner, living in Israel...I think...IF all of you will clean ALL the contacts;Battery ones, inside the battery chamber in the camera body, when you change your lenses...the 5 or 8 gold plated contacts, + the 8 contacts inside the lens mount...THIS VERY UNPLEASANT "FIRST BLACK IMAGE"...will "MAGICALLY" go away/vanish!!! It's also true that I only own the camera one year it's ONE of the last ones that came from the factory in Malaysia, but all what I wrote I do it for more of 2 decades, with my Minolta film cameras...so NEVER had any failure! Good Luck, Peace, ------------- Alex 007 |
Posted By: hornblower
Date Posted: 04 February 2007 at 12:41
|
great news.
I have no problems since I sent it to repair in August or so. Now I could sell the camera peacefully if I'd want (that I do not) ------------- La sabiduría me persigue pero soy más rápido |
Posted By: nigelbrooks
Date Posted: 04 February 2007 at 12:51
|
Alex
It is true that cleaning has solved the problem for some users. There is however a recognised manufacturing quality control fault in that one of the cogs in the shutter mechanism was poorly made and can cause the FBF problem. It's good that KM have recognised this and are willing to help those users for whom no amount of cleaning will work. ------------- I've been away! |
Posted By: Alex 007
Date Posted: 04 February 2007 at 13:26
Dear Nigel, Honestly...till I acquired...NO problem at all, & really I use it very barely OH...just saw that I can insert a photo, maybe NOT so easy as I do at SteveDigicams forums. I will try...sorry ask me my "Web address of my image"...sorry don't know how to do it...so NO photo! However, I finally decided when will be avialable here in Israel the newer Tamron 18-250mm zoom I will buy one to clean my CCD Sensor extremely carefully & well done fit this Tamron lens & forget lenses changing. As make me "Brainsick"...each time that I change lenses & rush to check IF...my CCD Sensor still clean! !!!ENOUGH!!! Peace, ------------- Alex 007 |
Posted By: digitalshooter
Date Posted: 04 February 2007 at 18:35
|
PLease again, this is not a KM fix for this issue and it does not work to permanently fix the problem.
|
Posted By: MEANSTREAK
Date Posted: 05 February 2007 at 16:14
| On one of my 5D I had experinced an "err" in the display. Is the the error code 58? Also on another 5D I experianced a first shot black but no "err". Does this mean it didn't record the error and they won't fix it? |