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100mm Macro vs Enlarging lens for film digitizing

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Manuel Iniesta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Manuel Iniesta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 100mm Macro vs Enlarging lens for film digitizing
    Posted: 01 January 2020 at 17:27
Happy new year!

I am making a rig to digitize 35mm film strips, mostly B/W film.
I'm using my enlarger's (Fujimoto G70) column as copy stand, with the camera facing down to negs placed on the enlarger's stand.
I have a M42 macro bellows, to attach my enlarging lenses, a Schneider Componon-S 50mm f2.8 and Fujinon EX 75mm f4.5.
I'll try the A7R4 pixel shifting to improve the info out of films like Tmax 100 and APX 25.
The I realized I could use my Sony A 100m macro as well.
What combo has the best resolution / convenience?
Any advice to make the process faster?

Thanks in advance!


Edited by Manuel Iniesta - 01 January 2020 at 18:03
 



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Miranda F View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2020 at 17:42
What lighting are you planning to use?
Miranda F & Sensorex, Sony A58, Nex-6, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras . . .
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Manuel Iniesta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Manuel Iniesta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2020 at 18:11
I think I'll buy a LED negatoscope.
At first I thought I would use flashes, placing the camera and the bellows on a tripod, but the slide copier bundled with the bellows has plain sight aligment issues with the bellows, so, unless I buy a better bellows + slide copier combo (like a Pentax M bellows with accesories) using the enlarger's column and stand seems the better solution, I just have to buy a couple of cheap L39 to M42 adapters. I'm in the process of buying a LA-EA3, in that case, I can mount the camera straight to the column with the 100 macro facing down to the stand.

Edited by Manuel Iniesta - 01 January 2020 at 19:40
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nandbytes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote nandbytes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2020 at 18:37
Originally posted by Manuel Iniesta Manuel Iniesta wrote:


What combo has the best resolution / convenience?


You have recently acquired an A7RIV if I am not mistaken. If you are looking to maximise the quality on this body i.e. the resolution, forget the Sony 100mm macro and the LA-EA3 and go straight for the FE 90mm macro.

I have linked DXO mark testing link below both on essentially the same 42mp sensor. from the figures and the field map its pretty clear the sony 100mm macro (which is optically the same as the old minolta 100mm macro) while was a great sharp macro lens is showing its age.
The FE 90mm macro on the other hand is capable of fully resolving the 42mp sensor while the 100mm macro doesn't even seem to resolve as much as some zoom lenses on e-mount. So on a 61mp sensor it will be even worst.

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/100-mm-2.8-Macro-on-Sony-SLT-Alpha-99-II-versus-Sony-FE-90mm-F28-Macro-G-OSS-on-Sony-A7R-II__276_1120_1517_1035

I always suggest taking dxomark with a pinch of salt but in cases like this the difference is clear and will be clear if you compared the results yourself

Edited by nandbytes - 01 January 2020 at 18:42
my flickr
A7RIV & LX100ii
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Dr. Harout View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dr. Harout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2020 at 18:55
If this helps:
I am digitizing my negatives and slides for a long time now (seems it will never end).
First of all as an advice for others: don't use film scanners or flatbed scanners. I don't want to get into the details.
Of course 61mp is a lot for digitizing film but I am doing it myself.
Tried with different Macro lenses, with or without adapters, on a7rii and a7riv. The best combination for me works with the schneider APO-Componon HM 4.5/90.
I use it with a Novoflex Castbal T/S bellows.
The Componon-S 2.8/50 is a great lens (I own it too) but doesn't match the aforementioned one.
You'll definitely not need PixelShift for digitizing the negatives as they do not have such a resolution.
I guess your Fujinon will do it right.
I would suggest using a light box/panel underneath the film
Finally, you need a film holder.
Once you set them up right (focus, size...) the rest is easy.
If you'll digitize color negatives Capture One is ideal to convert them, once you know the trick.
Ask anytime.
Cheers
a7riv + Sony, Zeiss, Rodenstock, M42 and Schneider lenses
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gigo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2020 at 19:39
LA-EA3,3x-1x Macro, Macro stand, slide duplicator, MFC-1000, Ring Flash.

Very unfortunately LA-EA4 does not recognize 3x-1x Macro. LA-EA3 recognizes the lens but cannot AF.
It is most comfortable to use 99II.
The duplicated slide that about 50 years old.


Edited by gigo - 01 January 2020 at 19:44
9,99II,7RIV,6300.., about 40 lenses
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Manuel Iniesta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2020 at 20:29
Thanks for your answers!

@nandbytes: I know about the 90mm macro great performance, I guess it will take some time until I save enough to buy it, unless I find a bargain (I am sceptical about it). Goood enlarging lenses are great performers, I might get by with them until I build a new E mount system camera bag. I take your advice, and the 90mm macro is in my shorlist...

@gigo the 3x-1x Macro is a beautiful piece of gear, but very hard to find outside Japan (I bought the Fujinon EX at Japan BTW) and still, expensive. I would rather buy the E 90mm Macro instead. Lovely digitizing work! Ganbatte ne!

@dr.harout: wow, you nailed every question! thanks a lot for your wise advices. I bought a Canon flatbed scanner years ago, but the frustrating results have lead me here.
Do you think the Fujinon outperforms the Schneider? I thought that would be the other way around, or a parity at least, since the Fujinon is designed for 56x56mm, though it is a very praised lens.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dr. Harout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2020 at 21:23
IMHO the Schneider-Kreuznach APO-Componon HM 4.5/90 outperforms the Fujinon 75mm. It covers 6x6 too (even more I think, e.g. 6x9).
But don't get me wrong, you can still use the Fujinon with excellent results.
Cheers
a7riv + Sony, Zeiss, Rodenstock, M42 and Schneider lenses
Flickr
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Manuel Iniesta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Manuel Iniesta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2020 at 22:27
Got that! I meant the Fujinon 75mm having a better performance than the Componon-S 50mm.

Regards

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2020 at 00:58
Originally posted by Manuel Iniesta Manuel Iniesta wrote:

Thanks for your answers!

@gigo the 3x-1x Macro is a beautiful piece of gear, but very hard to find outside Japan (I bought the Fujinon EX at Japan BTW) and still, expensive. I would rather buy the E 90mm Macro instead. Lovely digitizing work! Ganbatte ne!



Certainly it is limited to Japan, but at present, searching yahoo auction, 3x Macro + MFC-1000 is cheaper than new 90 Macro.
As the price is falling, more people are releasing it. It will soon bottom out and completely disappear from the market.
Slide duplicators are very rare and hard to obtain for 10 years.
(It was a long time ago when I digitized the ton of my films).
However, it is very efficient because there is an XY fine movement table and there are no lighting problems.
9,99II,7RIV,6300.., about 40 lenses
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2020 at 08:23
Be aware that white LEDs have a spectrum which is quite different from daylight, and although the performance at visual wavelengths roughly corresponds, it is unlikely to give the same colour reponse as either daylight or incandescent.
Google 'white LED spectrum' and 'daylight spectrum' to see the comparison.

Generally speakling the white LED spectrum is narrower and with a higher peak in the green region and has a peak and a dip at the blue end, so colour response may vary according to the exact tint of blue in clothing, sea, sky, etc, or green in grass. The red end also cuts off quickly.

White LEDs also vary according to their design and construction - don't expect them all to be identical.

Most common 'white' LEDs use a bright blue LED and a yellow phosphor. At least this gives a fairly broad spectrum in the visible region (though peakier than daylight).
Some use three individual red, green, blue LEds, and these give three sharp spikes with gaps in between. Peaky emission spectra are a very good way to spot repainted panels on cars - they match in dyalight but often don't in artifical light.

Edited by Miranda F - 02 January 2020 at 08:28
Miranda F & Sensorex, Sony A58, Nex-6, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2020 at 09:08
I feel like the story is off, but let's continue.

There are various types of white LEDs.
The type that emits fluorescent material with an LED that emits near-ultraviolet light is the same as a fluorescent lamp, so selecting a combination of fluorescent materials can bring it to daylight.

There is an index called "color rendering index" (CRI or Ra), where daylight is set to 100.
The initial white LED lighting was around Ra = 75 and was not praised very much, but now it is not found below Ra = 84.
White LEDs with a high color rendering of Ra = 94 or more can be purchased at Akihabara Electric Town.
I used to replace Ring flash bulb lighting with this kind of LED in the past.
Now You can buy Chinese-made commercial ring LED products, so I think it is better to choose one with good Ra.

Edited by gigo - 02 January 2020 at 09:15
9,99II,7RIV,6300.., about 40 lenses
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nandbytes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote nandbytes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2020 at 09:26
Could one use a tablet as a light source with some sort of an app?
my flickr
A7RIV & LX100ii
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Bob J View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bob J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2020 at 10:04
I would have thought the macro lens would be more convienient, but it should be possible to do your own comparisons to confirm what works best.

In theScanner article there are/were comparisons of film/flatbed and copying results... however photobucket hosting finally made the pictures useless, and it will take a while to re-post the shots. To cut to the chase, copying with a macro lens works quite well and is a good bit quicker than a film scanner (maybe not quite up to a film scanner when using a 24MP sensor, but a high-res sensor in a high res mode may put paid to that).

My own copying setup uses a perspex sheet to act as a diffuser with a remote flash illuminating from behind. The negative or slide needs to be a decent way above the perspex so that any dust on that is OoF. A blower and soft brush are good to keep the slide dust free. I did my focus using peaking, with a small torch providing light from behind.

Photographing slides works fine, B&W negatives need to be held flat (a negative holder or a couple of clean bits of picture glass work). Colour negatives are trickier unless you have software that does a good negative reversal.

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