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AI software marches on. New upgrade

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Brandy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brandy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AI software marches on. New upgrade
    Posted: 04 April 2022 at 02:53

It makes you wonder whether you need that big heavy awkward telephoto lens any more. The following were taken with my 70-200mm with TC 1.4 @ 280mm. The Kookaburra was just a light coloured speck in the EV, no way I could make out what it was, with a heavy crop I could make out the bird and then the magic happened. I put them into Topaz Gigapixel and blew them up two three and fourfold. All looked great on my 4K screen and would have printed really well. This was just a trial, I'm now using ON1RAW to edit and have just been notified that I'm getting a free update of their resize in the next week or two and that it will be superior to Gigapixel. Can't wait!! Will post samples when I can or even compare it to these...
A tiny tiny speck in the distance

Eyes closed for the plunge, couldn't see the bird let alone the eyes!

Splash.

And out again.


It's also a great plus that the camera/lens held the target the whole sequence without missing a shot. Where will it all end? I can't help but feel all this high tech spoils the challenge that I enjoyed a couple of years ago, makes life too easy??? As usual these look pretty crappy at 1024 pix but just take my word the blow ups look fantastic.

Edited by Brandy - 06 April 2022 at 23:05
ILCE-1. FE 70-200mm GM MK2 FE 24-105mm. FE 135mm F1.8. 1.4 TC and 2x TC
 



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addy landzaat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2022 at 08:10
Do you have the full picture?
Why not follow me on Instagram? @Addy_101
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krabster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote krabster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2022 at 10:51
There are almost no limitations for modern equipment. And all other flaws are removed in post processing. I sometimes miss the old days of the film era where you had 36 exposures on a film. I visited blues festival and B&W film pushing the limit to 1600 iso. And then the magic in the darkroom developing the film and making prints.
The digital era brought a lot of good things but the real craftmanship has gone.
Sorry this old man is getting emotional.
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Dopol View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dopol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2022 at 12:28
I use On1 (as well) as Topaz Gigapixel
And I'm looking forward to the resize function in On1.
For now, I know I can shoot up to 12800iso with good results.
The AI-noise removal and AI-sharpen are getting better and better

Nice kookaburra Peter
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken
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addy landzaat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2022 at 12:45
Originally posted by krabster krabster wrote:

I sometimes miss the old days of the film era where you had 36 exposures on a film. I visited blues festival and B&W film pushing the limit to 1600 iso. And then the magic in the darkroom developing the film and making prints.
The digital era brought a lot of good things but the real craftmanship has gone.
Sorry this old man is getting emotional.
Film photography is alive and kicking. You can buy film from several places in NL. You can get film developed cheap at HEMA and Kruidvat for cheap and better quality at more boutique developers - and you could do it at home. There are darkrooms you can rent, or, if you have space, make one at home.

You might be interested in this video by Ilford showing how to burn and dodge in the darkroom. I was looking for another video I saw but couldn't find that. Hope this helps with your nostalgia

Almost forgot: we have dedicated film threads and a filmcamera subforum. You do not even have to go to Analoog Foto Forum!
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Tricky01 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tricky01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2022 at 12:57
Iíve been dabbling with the Topaz AI sharpening and noise apps and very impressed. But it does create an unusual situation. I appreciate technology advances, and to some degree weíve been through this with advancements to photoshop etc making image edits easier and more accessible, but even with those tools, the image is fundamentally your image. Your choice of editing, your adaptions. With the rise of AI driven tools, are they not recognising the subject and using knowledge of similar images to fill in the gaps? In which case, at what point is the image you end up with not actually your image? Would be really interested to see the originals, and also understand how much of these AI tools are drawing on what it thinks should be there versus actually improving what is there.
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Dopol View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dopol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2022 at 13:11
Originally posted by Tricky01 Tricky01 wrote:

Iíve been dabbling with the Topaz AI sharpening and noise apps and very impressed. But it does create an unusual situation. I appreciate technology advances, and to some degree weíve been through this with advancements to photoshop etc making image edits easier and more accessible, but even with those tools, the image is fundamentally your image. Your choice of editing, your adaptions. With the rise of AI driven tools, are they not recognising the subject and using knowledge of similar images to fill in the gaps? In which case, at what point is the image you end up with not actually your image? Would be really interested to see the originals, and also understand how much of these AI tools are drawing on what it thinks should be there versus actually improving what is there.


It is as you say.
You cannot 'use' AI-changed photographs in 'official' contests
What I have seen is that it was explicitly mentioned in the rules.
What the AI does (amongst others)is it looks at your (noise)patterns and replaces that with stuff that produces similar noise.
It is an unacceptable replacement for 'original' photos in contests.
The same goes for sky replacements and the like
When the tools get better and better there is a moment you cannot recognize the culprits.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tricky01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2022 at 23:55
Originally posted by Dopol Dopol wrote:

Originally posted by Tricky01 Tricky01 wrote:

Iíve been dabbling with the Topaz AI sharpening and noise apps and very impressed. But it does create an unusual situation. I appreciate technology advances, and to some degree weíve been through this with advancements to photoshop etc making image edits easier and more accessible, but even with those tools, the image is fundamentally your image. Your choice of editing, your adaptions. With the rise of AI driven tools, are they not recognising the subject and using knowledge of similar images to fill in the gaps? In which case, at what point is the image you end up with not actually your image? Would be really interested to see the originals, and also understand how much of these AI tools are drawing on what it thinks should be there versus actually improving what is there.


It is as you say.
You cannot 'use' AI-changed photographs in 'official' contests
What I have seen is that it was explicitly mentioned in the rules.
What the AI does (amongst others)is it looks at your (noise)patterns and replaces that with stuff that produces similar noise.
It is an unacceptable replacement for 'original' photos in contests.
The same goes for sky replacements and the like
When the tools get better and better there is a moment you cannot recognize the culprits.
I find this really quite difficult. I appreciate time marches on, and more and more apps are using these processes (plus some fundemental questions on what photography actually IS), but it does feel like there should be more transparency on how AI and ML are applied in these apps. Perhaps it even needs specific exif / metadata fields for tagging such images. I got so troubled that I couldn't find many discussions on it, I started rambling on my blog about it this evening here.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brandy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2022 at 00:25

Good morning to all, interesting to see all these comments that have arrived overnight.
addy and Simon, the original shot was 8640 x 5760 pixels and remember this is at 280mm so I could see it in camera. No PP here straight from the camera.



To the naked eye, I first just saw a splash and something fly back onto a branch, couldn't see what it was at all. Then trained the camera onto the target and was surprised to make out the kookaburra as I've never seen them diving into water before although they are a member of the kingfisher family. Then it was a waiting game to see if it would be repeated and obviously it was though only once I might add, so I considered myself lucky to have got these shots.
Here's a crop using gigapixel and starting to pixellate. This was the highly compressed mode setting and I'm not sure if the standard mode wasn't as good or even better. This was from a giga size of 6742 x 4494 reduced to 1024 pix for dyxum, a pity we can't host bigger sizes here....



Also overnight came mail from ON1RAW with a demo of the new resize software which as I mentioned earlier is supposed to be better than gigapixel, looking forward to putting it to the test.

ILCE-1. FE 70-200mm GM MK2 FE 24-105mm. FE 135mm F1.8. 1.4 TC and 2x TC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Coast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2022 at 06:25
Thanks for bringing the A1 subject up. I've actually been thinking about that quite a bit, because I want my photo to be a creation of mine not some computer in the sky that was programmed by who knows who. Who doesn't know me from Adam, and I'm not sure I want my "patterns" available up in the "cloud" to who knows who.

I want tools that enable me to better my image, I don't want something to make my image for me, as say "presets"
In the beginning I tried many edit programs, free trials, DxO, OnOne, I actually bought that one and then never used it, found something work better for me. I have never used photoshop, I'm allergic to subscriptions. I resented the "bait & switch" they tried on me.

Have settled on Luminar, It's pretty easy for me but most of all Luminar3 (I believe the basic Luminar) has many excellent what they call filters and now tools that I can play with and make my photo the way I wanted and have fun.Then they came out with Luminar4 which had the brilliant "sky replacement" tool.

My biggest problem w my photos has been my sky, w dust spots and artifacts. If I had a photo I really wanted I could save it w this tool and I could at times make a mediocre photo really pop.

Now they came out w Luminar Neo which I had to get because it has a dust removal tool, the answer for my prayers. Unbelievable, it spots all the spots on your sensor and removes all without a trace. It also has a power line removal button I don't see myself using much but could be very helpful in some cases at times

However I see programs intruding more and more (presets) and such, adding, subtracting, coloring, all kinds of things making the original image unrecognizable, in their own image

So sometimes its fun and useful and others its just not honest
Coast
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Brandy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brandy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2022 at 07:21

My sentiments exactly Joseph. There are loads of presets in ON1RAW and I can honestly say I've never used one. Similarly in the NIK collection which was part of DxO my previous go to software. Just out of interest there is now a dust visualisation tool in the retouch screen of ON1RAW which now makes for easy removal, worth a look if you still have the software....
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Dopol View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dopol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2022 at 08:43
I struggle with this.
Say I make a photo of a flying bird.
When processing the photo (necessary anyway) I notice the eye is not tack-sharp. It is tempting and even addictive to 'improve' the sharpness a bit.

I couldn't have made the photo without the Eye-focus function in my camera, which is equipped with a lens that wouldn't be possible to produce 10 years ago. The photo is shown on a screen with unparalleled resolution (in a decade-old perspective)
And editing (even without AI tools) I dodge and burn the total light balance to a level that pleases me.
I never was part of the association of 'stay-close-to-the-original', 'do- everything-right-in-your-camera', and editing photos moved from correcting the light in jpgs and white balance in RAWs to where I am now. Using three different programs (ON1, LR&PS. Topaz)
It is fun to do. I spend tons of time editing. I go back to photos I edited 10 years ago and find that there is so much to be improved, due to changing taste and available tooling.
AI-tooling is a new toy that you can or don't use. AI-tooling is fastly developing and improving over the last two years. Don't know where it ends.
I haven't made my mind up on using the tooling yet. But i'm afraid I'll grow into it.

Edited by Dopol - 05 April 2022 at 08:47
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Tricky01 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tricky01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2022 at 09:01
Interesting thoughts Joseph, Peter, Domien. I think it is worth clarifying a distinction though between editing and adapting the pixels you captured (dodging, burning, etc.) and replacing pixels. Itís the latter where I have a problem with AI and ML tools. I have no problem with presets, theyíre much like an expert over your shoulder suggesting you try x,y,z, which poses suggestions for processing of the pixels you captured. Itís where a tool is looking at your image and says ďI know the pixels you were *trying* to capture so Iíve popped them in for you. Itís like photoshop by stealth, and my main problem is that there are no doubt people who wouldnít replace a whole sky in their image, but will use AI sharpening without appreciating its broadly the same thing.
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Brandy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brandy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2022 at 23:14

Just received a free update this morning. Topaz Gigapixel V 6.0.0
This was the shot I posted originally



And this is with the new version, same settings ie one click on highly compressed only.



Doesn't show up the difference as well as I had hoped here but I hope you can make out a slight change around the eye. At higher res the change is very noticeably improved.
ILCE-1. FE 70-200mm GM MK2 FE 24-105mm. FE 135mm F1.8. 1.4 TC and 2x TC
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