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HELP not happy with these shots

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addy landzaat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2017 at 22:37
Originally posted by kankushok kankushok wrote:

I'm still extremely skeptical that the Sony a77ii is on the same level as the canon 7d2 for birds and wildlife. According to the dpreview comparison tool and dxo scores, high ISO still lags behind the competition a fair amount. Further, the af tracking is still not on par with canikon according to dpreview and several other review sites. This will be further exacerbated by the evf blackout during bursts. No af algorithm is going to perform well if you can't track your subjects smoothly! This of course has been fixed in the new a9, but that camera is on another level and uses a different mount.


Looking at DXO, the Sony and Canon are comparable at high ISO, the Sony is much better at low ISO.
I used the Dpreview tool for the first time for ILC and I noticed the low ISO results of the A77m2 were much softer - made me wonder what lens they used and I consider the tool useless.

Both Dpreview and Imaging Resource struggled with the AF system, indeed. However, they didn't report on the settings they used. The problem is a lot of folk also did have less then stellar results when Canon introduced new AF systems and it could just be them not being used to the Sony system. I don't know, I'm pleased with the AF performance. It was disappointing to read those reviews and I can understand you being doubtful about the capabilities.

Did you ever hear about viewfinder black-out? Same thing and nobody complains about that. EVF black-out is no problem with the A77m2 IMHO. I didn't find it problematic while using short bursts.

A picture says more then a thousands words, I was pleased with this BIF with my lowly A77m2:

Sony A77m2 | Sony 70-400G | 400mm | f/6.3 | 1/500s | 125iso

And if you want somewhat higher ISO's:

Sony A77m2 | Sony 70-400G | 330mm | f/6.3 | 1/500s | 1600iso


Edited by addy landzaat - 10 August 2017 at 22:40
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sybersitizen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2017 at 23:09
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Originally posted by kankushok kankushok wrote:

... the af tracking is still not on par with canikon according to dpreview and several other review sites. This will be further exacerbated by the evf blackout during bursts. No af algorithm is going to perform well if you can't track your subjects smoothly! This of course has been fixed in the new a9, but that camera is on another level and uses a different mount.

Did you ever hear about viewfinder black-out? Same thing and nobody complains about that. EVF black-out is no problem with the A77m2 IMHO. I didn't find it problematic while using short bursts.

Blackouts and tracking have nothing to do with the type of shooting the OP has shown us.

But if it's going to enter the discussion ... short blackouts, with either an OVF or EVF, should not interfere with a photographer's ability to 'track' a subject (keep it centered in the frame). The real objection with Sony's cameras has not been blackouts; it's been that when used at high frame rates they do not show what is happening in real time. Instead they show you an image that was already captured a moment ago, so a moving subject is no longer in the portion of the frame where you see it. It has moved and is now somewhere else when the next shot is taken. Some people never get the hang of working with that kind of system.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote momech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2017 at 23:39
Martin,

I looked at those MAF adjust images and am not sure what to think. 0, -1, -2, are all pretty soft. -5 is much better. But so is everything on the + side, form +1 to +5.

I remember having a really tough time adjusting my longer lenses on the A77, couldn't get consistent repeatable results. I'd try again maybe at a longer distance for the 400 mm. Maybe start at the -5 setting and work your way back to +5.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kankushok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 04:22
You're right, I'm referring to the slideshow effect. It absolutely applies in this case. There are some takeoff and flight examples (pretty good ones at that) in his flickr album where accurate subject tracking would be very helpful.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 04:45
I said this: Blackouts and tracking have nothing to do with the type of shooting the OP has shown us.

His examples embedded in the thread are all of pretty static subjects and his concerns were about 'the lack of sharpness, contrast everything basically'; the action shots in his Flickr stream might have other issues, but they were not shown to us.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kankushok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 05:22
Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

I said this: Blackouts and tracking have nothing to do with the type of shooting the OP has shown us.

His examples embedded in the thread are all of pretty static subjects and his concerns were about 'the lack of sharpness, contrast everything basically'; the action shots in his Flickr stream might have other issues, but they were not shown to us.


The op specifically linked to his flickr referencing the kingfisher shots did he not? op also posted some calibration shots to his flickr without embedding here. Are they irrelevant as well? I'd say they're pretty relevant to this thread. Where did you find any exif info for the shots he posted?   Let the op judge for himself what is useful or relevant advice.   
a100, a77, 16-50, 70-400, Tokina 400, Tamron 90mm, F43
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote linearamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 09:02
Originally posted by momech momech wrote:

Martin,

I looked at those MAF adjust images and am not sure what to think. 0, -1, -2, are all pretty soft. -5 is much better. But so is everything on the + side, form +1 to +5.

I remember having a really tough time adjusting my longer lenses on the A77, couldn't get consistent repeatable results. I'd try again maybe at a longer distance for the 400 mm. Maybe start at the -5 setting and work your way back to +5.


Hi Momech,

Thank you for taking the time to take a look at the test results on my flickr .
i agree with your comments regarding the softness on the - side apart from -5 .

What i dont understand is the most of the + are pretty sharp to me ,so why would -5 be sharp also ?
i did not take anymore shots above 5 as it seemed obvious that there is something going on with the lens / camera with the results i have posted.

The distance from the scale to the camera is the maximum i can get in my garden

So im still bemused as to what is going on .
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Post Options Post Options   Quote linearamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 09:13
Originally posted by kankushok kankushok wrote:

Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

I said this: Blackouts and tracking have nothing to do with the type of shooting the OP has shown us.

His examples embedded in the thread are all of pretty static subjects and his concerns were about 'the lack of sharpness, contrast everything basically'; the action shots in his Flickr stream might have other issues, but they were not shown to us.


The op specifically linked to his flickr referencing the kingfisher shots did he not? op also posted some calibration shots to his flickr without embedding here. Are they irrelevant as well? I'd say they're pretty relevant to this thread. Where did you find any exif info for the shots he posted?   Let the op judge for himself what is useful or relevant advice.   


Just to let you know i have been referring to the Kingfisher shots as these are the ones that i know are not sharp using the 70-400G .
I did not post the test results on Dyxum as i did not put up 10 photos, i thought it would be better just to supply the link .
At the moment i am trying get advice regarding the lack of sharpeness / contrast from this combo .
Think you all know that this combo should be producing sharper images .

Again thanks for all the advice its greatly appreciated .Although it doesnt seem like im getting anywhere fast looking at the test results

Martin
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 09:27
Originally posted by SnowFella SnowFella wrote:

Think Iv'e posted this one in the past, it's ISO1250 and 1/125sec on an A77 without any noise reduction trickery and my Sigma 150-500 at it's weakest point, ie 500mm. Shot handheld with a fair crop in post.

Great pic! How many others did you take at the same time, and how bad were the rest?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 09:46
I think you have a problem getting a good compromise. With IBIS, a steady hand or shelf support is plenty good enough to get rid of camera shake at quite modest shutter speeds - 1/250 or faster. The problem is that with feathers you're looking at very fine detail and even the slightest movement of the bird will blur them, so you need either:-
- a much faster shutter speed, which in low light puts you at full aperture where the lens won;t be as sharp, or high ISO, which gives noise and/or detail softening, or
- a flashgun, which tends to make the birds fly away.

high ISO performance is something which has improved greatly in recent years. My A58, a similar generation to the A77ii gives very good results up to 800ISO and more recent cameras are good to much higher ISO. That won't correct any other focussing or lens softness problems you have, but it will allow you to keep the shutter speed high and the aperture to f8-f9 where the lens is sharper and the DOF is greater.

But I'd recommend getting the other stuff sorted first, and lots of lens testing is a good idea. I download the Koren 2003test chart and print it at A4 or A3. I usually add some big black squares on the rhs to aid focussing. There are plenty of other charts, of course but that will allow an objective test of sharpness. If you get the rhs of the chart dead centre in your VF and the LHS on the LH edge, you should see detail to at least 150.

If you use AF, though, you may find AF simply isn't good enough to show the full lens sharpness, and this is something I believe a lot of photogs don't appreciate. AF is brilliant at getting focus approximately right very quickly, but you can't expect it to get focus exactly right every time, particularly if you have very sharp lenses and crop them 100%. You may want that, but you won't get it (though some cameras are better than others). You should expect a random distribution of focus, so you need the MFA to centre the range in the right place, and then you have to take enough pics to get some sharp.

Or else you use a tripod with focus magnify and MF, assuming the subject stays still long enough ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SnowFella Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 10:04
Originally posted by Miranda F Miranda F wrote:


Great pic! How many others did you take at the same time, and how bad were the rest?


Going by my numbering it would of been ~100 shots in that location, I have 40 saved and the rest culled. Some due to hand shake and some due to the bird moving with that slow shutter speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote momech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 12:51
Originally posted by linearamp linearamp wrote:

So im still bemused as to what is going on .


Yeah, I remember being "bemused" quite often by my A77.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote linearamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 20:00
thought i would post 3 shots that are unedited no crop just converted to jpeg ,see what you guys think

[IMG]DSC07256 by Martin, on Flickr[/IMG]




[IMG]DSC06591 by Martin, on Flickr[/IMG]

DSC07255 by Martin, on Flickr
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maewpa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 21:39
That is interesting, I looked at those three shots and I see nothing unexpected or any obvious problems with focus.... although I do suspect front focus I think that is just as likely the camera grabbing the brighter branch - it grabbed it behind in one of the original shots too. What I do see is that you are not close enough for that bird to get good, consistent, sharp results, that the light is not good enough for same given the distance, and that there appears to be some blur from either bird or camera movement. I don't like the fact that the bird isn't as sharp as it should be and it would make me itchy too, but I honestly think there is too much going on here to conclude what the cause is. I never used the A77 but I have had had plenty of results like this over the years, and plenty of much better results with the same cameras too. In weaker light ... well my experience that is why people pay $000s for a camera that will never justify its price in favorable conditions (actually most just because they have the cash, but give some people some credit for sense, eh?)

And some scenes just don't work well very often and this could be one. For what it is worth I think the third shot would have worked well if you'd had a shutter speed well over 1/1000s and the light to allow that.

So yes, I wouldn't be rushing out to buy this combo but there is a lot for you to be working on too and don't necessarily bin it just yet. You can do better.

For a start look at the photos that people are posting and see there are no branches cutting through the bird. The camera knew what it was supposed to focus on. I'd bet bigger bird, smaller branch your results would be much better, and no branch and brighter light, better still.... but how much I don't know.
Paul aka maewpa
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