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Is micro 4/3 dead?

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Jonas A-R View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jonas A-R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 November 2018 at 14:51
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:


Back to m34: Panasonic made a good decision to go full frame and skip APS-C, that makes their m43 cameras still relevant in this market. There is a USP for m43, I saw several mentioned in this thread!



Yes, equivalent (sic!) to Fuji’s APS-C/baby MF split
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owenn01 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote owenn01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 November 2018 at 15:00
Irrespective of the relative comparison arguments/debate, I seem to recall the late Michael Reichmann (Luminous Landscapes) saying early on that he thought M43 and Olympus especially had a product he could easily live with and which delivered results well above what people thought should be possible with that sensor size. Add on to that the sheer quality of Olympus lenses and the (at that time) somewhat universal lens mount and it seemed a good direction to go in.

I would suggest there is life in the old dog yet, but how many lives is, perhaps, a different story ultimately (to mix one's metaphors!).

best regards, Neil.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mirthseeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2018 at 23:46
I laughed out loud when I saw this topic, and didn't have to watch the clickbait that started it. I did wonder how long Kirk Tuck would take to react, knowing from reading his blog he was leading a tour group around Iceland, using two G9's. And sure enough he has responded, from some airport on the way back.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2018 at 08:36
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

But please, do not talk equivalence, as it always seems to turn out nasty and it is completely irrelevant. I do not take pictures to try to emulate a picture I could have made with a different camera.


Well said!

As it happens, I use APS-C so much more than FF now that when I want to use FF I have to work out 'APS-C equivalent' focal lengths in my head
Miranda F & Sensorex, Sony A7Rii, A58, Nex-6, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2018 at 08:57
Originally posted by mirthseeker mirthseeker wrote:

I laughed out loud when I saw this topic, and didn't have to watch the clickbait that started it. I did wonder how long Kirk Tuck would take to react, knowing from reading his blog he was leading a tour group around Iceland, using two G9's. And sure enough he has responded, from some airport on the way back.

Yes, and I mostly agree with him. I have several cameras in regular use and I switch between them quite often:-

600si (35mm film)
A58 & Nex (APS-C)
Canon S100 (1/1.7")
Nokia phone (1/3")

They *all* take good pictures (okay, they need some help!).

The biggest differences are
(1) the picture-taking experience, and that's where the bigger ones are better
(2) how easy it is to carry them around (and how likely I am to have it with me when I want to take the picture), and that's where the smaller ones win.

When I'm looking at the pics after taking them, the sensor size rarely correlates with the reason for rejection - that's usually me not getting the settings perfect or the lens not focussing correctly or the camera or subject moving or something else like that.

Paradoxically the one with the smallest sensor takes some of the best hand-held pictures in low light levels, partly because the small weight allows it to be held really still, partly because the wide-angle lens doesn't show the shake much, and partly because the processing engine inside is so good (and it has OSS). And yes, with a tripod the bigger cameras are better.

It seems to me that much of the enthusiasm for FF is due to the desire for fast sharp glass; we never had that in the old days - you could have fast glass or you could have sharp glass, but not both at the same instant. And, as Tony Northrup says, that means big glass. If you don't need fast sharp glass (I wanted it for film, but don't need it for high-ISO capable digital), then small glass will do, so why have a big camera? In my case, in order to get the functions and the controls. The Nex has most of the controls of the A58 but not all the functions, the S100 ditto wrt the Nex, and the phone - well, very few controls but a good auto setting!

And btw, for me the light collecting argument is completely spurious: I don't shoot moving subjects in low light, if the light level is too low for a noise-free image hand-held, then I use a tripod. With a distant still subject (or an intentionally blurred one, if I'm trying to get rid of people :-) the tripod completely negates any theoretical advantage of larger sensors, and guess what? The smaller cameras work with a tiny pocket-size tripod and the big ones don't ...

Oh, and if I want a low-light portrait with the background bright, I will use flash for the subject, and again the sensor size is irrelevant.


Edited by Miranda F - 04 November 2018 at 09:07
Miranda F & Sensorex, Sony A7Rii, A58, Nex-6, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras ...
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Bob J View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bob J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2018 at 09:41
I think you get some ebb and flow, but generally the trend is towards smaller.

135 was often dismissed as a minature format that was too small for 'real' work, but as emulsions got better and the portability became better appreciated, the format dominated.

Even in medium format the larger 6x9 sizes became very rare, with 6x45 dominating.. I like my full frame sensors, but that is mainly because they go so well with my lenses originally designed for 135 film - and some of the lovliest pictures on Dyxum have been taken on APS-C sized sensors.

I suspect that as time goes on and the noise characteristics of small photosites improves to the extent that really high ISO values still give relatively low-noise results, that the pendulum will start to swing towards the smaller formats again.
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote ABDurbs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2018 at 11:55
Originally posted by mirthseeker mirthseeker wrote:

I laughed out loud when I saw this topic, and didn't have to watch the clickbait that started it. I did wonder how long Kirk Tuck would take to react, knowing from reading his blog he was leading a tour group around Iceland, using two G9's. And sure enough he has responded, from some airport on the way back.

Yup an interesting read and I also agree with what he has to say, in general.

For me the line that stands out in his blog are words to effect of " Don't knock it till you have tried it". I was not a fan of MFT until I tried an Olympus with a fast pro lens, and I am now sold on the format (and the brand).

I dislike my phone camera intensely, but it is the most convenient camera I have. By the same token if I had a smaller ILC pro body and lens, I would also be more likely to carry that around more than I do my A77ii or A99.

So why haven't I made the switch? I have a decent full size couple of bodies and lenses, and to switch would cost me more than I can afford at the moment, but I will as soon as I can afford it. I think there are quite a few others in the same situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2018 at 15:46
Originally posted by Miranda F Miranda F wrote:

Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

But please, do not talk equivalence, as it always seems to turn out nasty and it is completely irrelevant. I do not take pictures to try to emulate a picture I could have made with a different camera.

Well said!

Is it?

I think a thread about someone's predictions concerning the death of a digital format due to pressure from other formats is an appropriate place to revisit equivalence.

Further, the purpose of understanding equivalence is not to take pictures to try to emulate a picture one could have made with a different camera. It's a tool to help when deciding what kind of camera and lens is likely to be appropriate or inappropriate for taking certain types of pictures.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2018 at 17:15
Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

Originally posted by Miranda F Miranda F wrote:

Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

But please, do not talk equivalence, as it always seems to turn out nasty and it is completely irrelevant. I do not take pictures to try to emulate a picture I could have made with a different camera.

Well said!

Is it?
Yes it is. It always is same discussion.

I think a thread about someone's predictions concerning the death of a digital format due to pressure from other formats is an appropriate place to revisit equivalence.
You might think that way, but I disagree. Not because of equivalence, but because of the way these discussions go.

Further, the purpose of understanding equivalence is not to take pictures to try to emulate a picture one could have made with a different camera. It's a tool to help when deciding what kind of camera and lens is likely to be appropriate or inappropriate for taking certain types of pictures.
Well, the way you and others do this, it indeed never seems about the pictures, but always about the argument. If you want to discuss it, do it a dedicated thread. There is so much more to a camera system and the equivalence discussion just gets in the way.

Also, you say "what kind of camera and lens is likely to be appropriate or inappropriate for taking certain types of pictures" but that is never what is mentioned. For what kind of photography is m43 inappropriate? I cannot think of any. But if you disagree, that would be relevant here.

This is a community, as several people mentioned they get weary about the equivalence discussion, you might want to take notice.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2018 at 17:53
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

Originally posted by Miranda F Miranda F wrote:

Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

But please, do not talk equivalence, as it always seems to turn out nasty and it is completely irrelevant. I do not take pictures to try to emulate a picture I could have made with a different camera.

Well said!

Is it?
Yes it is. It always is same discussion.

First you said it's irrelevant and becomes nasty. It's absolutely not irrelevant, and at this point you are the one taking it in a nasty direction.

Now you say it's always the same, so you're bored. Easy solution: Neither you nor anyone else has to read the posts that you find boring.

Also, you say "what kind of camera and lens is likely to be appropriate or inappropriate for taking certain types of pictures" but that is never what is mentioned. For what kind of photography is m43 inappropriate? I cannot think of any. But if you disagree, that would be relevant here.

You're well aware that it's harder to get the same narrow DOF that one can get with larger formats and faster lenses. For someone who needs that, m43 is less appropriate than something else, which I'm sure you've pointed out yourself in the past. It's not a secret. Equivalence is just a tool for more specifically identifying the overlaps and the limits.

This is a community, as several people mentioned they get weary about the equivalence discussion, you might want to take notice.

Again: People are not forced to read posts they don't want to read.

Edited by sybersitizen - 04 November 2018 at 18:24
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pegelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2018 at 18:49
[MOD] Hereby a strong request to stop the discussions on the merits of "equivalence", the point has been made on the technical aspects and we know the fact some people like it and some don't. I don't think anything more needs to be said about this in this thread so from now on posts that continue this discussion in this thread without adding anything substantially new will likely be hidden and subsequently deleted.

In case anybody has a problem with this PM me, pls. don't post your question or remark on it here [/MOD]
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2018 at 20:15
Since all discussion must henceforth be focused on the specific thread subject (as if that's something really important to discuss), I see no reason to consider m43 dead at all ... but I don't own anything in that format and don't have plans to buy into it, so others out there will have to take the initiative in keeping it alive.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Winwalloe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2018 at 20:24
Originally posted by mirthseeker mirthseeker wrote:

I laughed out loud when I saw this topic, and didn't have to watch the clickbait that started it. I did wonder how long Kirk Tuck would take to react, knowing from reading his blog he was leading a tour group around Iceland, using two G9's. And sure enough he has responded, from some airport on the way back.


I've read Kirk's post before knowing there would be a thread here

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Post Options Post Options   Quote BearairCactus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2018 at 22:03
I wonder how many people remember that when Olympus went mirrorless many click bait wonders predicted the end of Olympus, that mirrorless would never equal DSLR's blah blah blah!
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