FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Lens data requested

Page  123 4>
Author
brettania View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Dyxum factotum

Joined: 17 July 2005
Country: New Zealand
Location: Auckland
Status: Offline
Posts: 20650
Post Options Post Options   Quote brettania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lens data requested
    Posted: 24 November 2007 at 05:41

This is the starter for hotwire to transfer a number of relevant posts from a thread in Lens Talk.

This OP may be modified as the thread develops and in order to assist hotwire to build a logical sequence in the thread I am suggesting that he uses the "Quote" system.

I will index it when we get things underway.



Edited by brettania - 26 November 2007 at 07:11
 



Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 22:18
As originally posted by me here, and modified somewhat:

-----

Given the wish from a lot of us that Dalifer, ExifTool, RAWhide, and other programs (*cough* Lightroom, but I'm dreaming in Technicolor) supported lens identification info fully, we as the users need to be proactive on accumulating this information. If we want the data, we as Minolta mount users have to get it together.

Of course to make this feasible we need the raw data first.

I ended up using ExifTool today with all my (many) lenses to add the info to the Dyxum makernotes database. Unfortunately, the database seems to have several inconsistencies, and so for all my observations, I have noted them in comments with date so people actually know where it came from, and from who. If you can access the makernotes database and can confirm a value, please post saying so!

I figure I'll repeat what info we actually need to make identifying a lens from exif data work:

To review:
There are only 3 pieces of lens fingerprints info provided by the exif data for certain:

1. Lens ID. Unfortunately, this is not a standalone identifier. Some Sigma lenses for example use the same lens ID cause Sigma reverse engineers everything and doesn't pay licensing fees.
Additional bad thing that may happen: could a given lens have more than one lens ID based on production date, etc?
Best case scenario: Only one lens has the ID. Happy day. We can ID the lens.
Worst case scenario: Several lenses have the same ID. The good news here is that we do know a bunch of lenses the lens is not!

2. Focal length. This makes identifying primes pretty easy (naturally), and does help tell us in what focal length range the lens will fall (a shot taken with a 70-300 lens will not have an focal length of 30mm recorded, right?)
Quirky exceptions: I believe the beercan records and exif focal length of 75mm when the lens is set to 70mm. Also, doesn't a Sigma 15mm Fish record as 16mm in exif?
Best case scenario: prime
Worst case scenario: 18-200, 28-300 and other superzooms which in essence don't tell us anything either.

3. Maximum aperture. The lens records what the largest aperture available is. Of course this info is functionally useless without the focal length, but we have that... this info is kinda needed in conjunction with the focal length. We need to create tables for each lens stating what the max aperture at each focal length is. For constant aperture lenses, this is easy. For variable aperture lenses, we will need to record this data somewhere (this data is not currently recorded online anywhere so far as I know, though it has been discussed in the past).


As for identical Minolta/Sony rebadges, and when we just can't ID the lens for certain: So this is where we're forced to give up. All we can do here is present a user a list of what lenses it might be, and have the user choose.
Best case scenario: the user actually only has one lens that matches the available options. Since in the vast majority of cases, this data is getting observed on the photographer's computer, he/she should know what lens he/she actually has. Give them the job of ID'ing the lens in their collection. Flag that lens somehow to know that any future photos with matching criteria are that lens, though provide the user a way to edit the flagged lens collection (people's lineups change with time). In future iterations, just check the flagged lenses a user says are in their lineup to minimize the necessary amount of processing time.

Worst case scenario: more than one lens. User will have to flag both, and manually identify each shot that could be from any of more than one lens. If user's brain works (most users offload shots to computers relatively soon after taking them, they should remember the lens used).

I'll leave the issue of storing data (xml, csv, etc) as discussed by persons more capable than I, but I will say this: Software that accesses such a database really should be able to select it as an external file, and not integrate it into source code since the software and the lens ID data will not get updated at the same time as said software in all likelihood.

Store the database as a user downloadable file from dyxum (is there any other logical choice of where to keep such a database?). Actually this is already the case, though the info dyxum has is incomplete at best... but it's still by far the most complete database available.

Oh, and of course as the unique identifier for each lens (since the makerfile lens id is not mutually exclusive?): the dyxum lens database id, naturally.

Edited by hotwire - 26 November 2007 at 05:13
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 22:20
Original Post

Originally posted by matthiaspaul matthiaspaul wrote:

Hi,

Over at Minolta-Forum.de (http://www.minolta-forum.de) we just found your thread last night and I just had to finally sign up with Dyxum to express how thankful we are that you posted this information. :-) It happens, I planned on doing something like this myself for years, but never found the time, actually. I did research the AF flash protocol on byte level many years ago, though.

Yesterday, when Sony released the firmware update 1.02 to the A100, we routinely scanned the files for "interesting stuff" and the discussion about the rumoured lens-ID in Minolta AF lenses arose again. So far, there had been rumours, that at least the Dynax 7D would contain a lens database in order to allow ADI flash mode with (known) non-(D)-type lenses, however, we never found hard proof for it (except for that it would "make sense"). Various EXIF tools report lens IDs, but so far, it was not clear if they originated in the camera body (some kind of index or hash code in that rumoured table) or the lenses itself.

However, there is a file now published alongside the firmware update named "LensTable.xml". It assigns lens descriptions to various codes in the range 0..255, 25xx and 26xx. We tried to make sense of them and found the 25xx and 26xx codes to correspond with the 4-digit Minolta article code of the corresponding lenses. (It should also work vice versa.)

For unknown reasons, not all Minolta lenses are listed in the XML file. Even more interesting, the A100 firmware update clearly has at least one very visible lens table (I could not find anything like this in the Dynax 7D firmware), and this table contains another 5 lenses which are not listed in the XML file (and vice versa) - apparently most of them are not even listed in Michael Hohner's lens table yet (http://www.mhohner.de/minolta/lenses.php). Once again, only 4-digit codes are listed in the firmware. For your convenience, here they come:

- 2620 "28-70/2.8G" -> Michael lists 1 variant, the XML file contains 1 variant. Which 2nd version is this? The unreleased SSM?

- 2628 "80-200/2.8G" -> Michael lists 2 variants, as does the XML file. So, which 3rd variant is this?

- 2631 "100-300/4.5-5.6APO" -> Michael lists 5 variants, including 1 xi and 3 APOs. The XML file lists only 4 variants (none of them labelled APO or xi). Which one is this APO one and why is it missing in the XML file?

- 2644 "100-400/4.5-6.7APO" -> Michael lists 1 variant, as does the XML file. Which lens does this 2nd ID correspond with?

- 2672 "24-105/3.5-4.5D" -> Michael lists 2 variants, one Minolta, one Sony. The XML file lists only 1 variant. Now, which variant is this 2nd variant, and why is it missing in the XML file?

We now tried to find similar data in the ROM dumps you posted. These 4-digit codes, however, are not in there.

Instead, we could find those 5-digit codes in the range 25xxy and 26xxy, as they are reported by various EXIF utilities, to be a combination of the 4-digit article code (x) and another number (y) of unknown purpose. (Internal lens revision? Internal ROM revision? Lens labelling? Target market? Vendor or licensee ID?) And: This 5-digit code can be found in the last two bytes of the ROM data (offset depending on ROM length), thereby finally giving hard proof to the theory, that Minolta AF lenses do in fact contain a lens-ID:

Offset +30 \ "lens-ID low-byte" | +43 \ "lens-ID high-byte"?
Offset +31 / "lens-ID high-byte" | +44 / "lens-ID low byte"

(Not sure about offset +43, as this could also serve another purpose in case all lenses with 45-bytes ROM data would have lens IDs below 256.)

For a start, we proved this to be correct for all your three Minolta lenses:

(xx = variable depending on focal length)

4/70-210mm (XML: 2555, EXIF: 25551 = 63CFh):

80h 29h 58h 00h 21h 00h 20h xxh 2Bh 00h FBh xxh xxh 00h 00h xxh
00h CEh 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h CFh 63h

1.7/50mm (XML: 2550, 2613, EXIF: 25501 = 639Dh):

80h 15h 50h 00h 0Dh 00h 20h 39h 19h 00h FBh 40h 00h 00h 00h 5Dh
E9h A9h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 9Dh 63h

3.5-4.5/35-70mm (XML: 5, EXIF: 5 = 0005h):

81h 26h 50h xxh 1Eh 21h 10h xxh 2Ch 00h FFh xxh xxh 00h 04h xxh
00h A4h 00h xxh 34h C8h xxh xxh 6Ah 25h 00h 00h B8h 00h F3h B2h
02h xxh xxh 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 00h 02h 00h 05h

For reference purposes, I'll list the 4-digit codes as found in the XML file, plus those listed in the firmware, synchronized with article codes from the lens service manuals here (sorted by ID):

(Codes clearly corresponding with Minolta 4-digit inhouse project or article numbers according to service manuals are indicated in fat letters. This does not imply, the remaining codes in the 25xx and 26xx range would not correspond with article codes, however, I don't own them, therefore I cannot prove this. Please report back if you own the corresponding service manuals or can otherwise source these codes.)
(Codes only listed in the A100 firmware 1.02 are indicated in fat red letters. This does not imply they would not exist elsewhere, but I just don't know any other source. They are not listed in the Dynax 7D firmware, though.)
(Codes in green correspond with the ROM lens data presented in this thread. See above for details.)

0 "28-85mm F3.5-4.5"
1 "80-200mm F2.8"
2 "28-70mm F2.8"
3 "28-80mm F4-5.6"
?
5 "35-70mm F3.5-4.5"
6 "24-85mm F3.5-4.5"
7 "100-300mm F4.5-5.6"
8 "70-210mm F4.5-5.6"
9 "MACRO 50mm F3.5"
10 "28-105mm F3.5-4.5"
11 "300mm F4"
12 "SOFTFOCUS 100mm F2.8"
13 "75-300mm F4.5-5.6"
14 "100-400mm F4.5-6.7"
15 "400mm F4.5"
16 "17-35mm F3.5"
17 "20-35mm F3.5-4.5"
18 "28-80mm F3.5-5.6"
19 "35mm F1.4"
20 "135mm F2.8 [T4.5] STF"
?
22 "35-80mm F4-5.6"
23 "MACRO 200mm F4"
24 "24-105mm F3.5-4.5"
25 "100-300mm F4.5-5.6"
?
27 "85mm F1.4"
28 "100mm F2.8 Macro"
29 "75-300mm F4.5-5.6"
30 "28-80mm F3.5-5.6"
31 "50mm F2.8 Macro"
32 "300mm F2.8 G"
33 "70-200mm F2.8 G"
?
35 "85mm F1.4 L"
36 "28-100mm F3.5-5.6"
?
38 "17-35mm F2.8-4"
39 "28-75mm F2.8"
40 "DT 18-70mm F3.5-5.6"
41 "DT 11-18mm F4.5-5.6"
42 "DT 18-200mm F3.5-6.3"
43 "35mm F1.4 G"
44 "50mm F1.4"
45 "Planar T* 85mm F1.4 ZA"
46 "Vario-Sonnar T* DT 16-80mm F3.5-4.5 ZA"
47 "Sonnar T* 135mm F1.8 ZA"
?
2550 "50mm F1.7" (according to service manual for 2550-100/2550-600)
2551 "35-70mm F4"
2552 "28-85mm F3.5-4.5"
2553 "28-135mm F4-4.5"
2554 "35-105mm F3.5-4.5" ("old" according to service manual for 2554-100/2554-600)
2555 "70-210mm F4" (according to service manual for 2555-100/2555-600)
2556 "135mm F2.8"
2557 "28mm F2.8"
2558 "24-50mm F4"
?
2560 "100-200mm F4.5"
2561 "75-300mm F4.5-5.6"
2562 "50mm F1.4"
2563 "300mm F2.8"
2564 "MACRO 50mm F2.8"
2565 "600mm F4"
2566 "24mm F2.8"
?
2572 "500mm F8 Reflex"
?
2578 "16mm F2.8 Fisheye"
2579 "20mm F2.8"
?
2581 "MACRO 100mm F2.8"
?
2585 "35-105mm F3.5-4.5" (new version according to service manual for 2585-100/2585-600)
?
2588 "70-210mm F3.5-4.5"
2589 "80-200mm F2.8"
2590 "----" (as of Sony's XML file) / "Tele Converter 1,4x" (according to service manual 2590-100/2590-600)
2591 "35mm F1.4"
2592 "85mm F1.4"
2593 "200mm F2.8"
2594 "MACRO 3X-1X F1.7-2.8"
?
2596 "28mm F2"
2597 "35mm F2"
2598 "100mm F2"
?
2601 "----" (as of Sony's XML file) / "Tele Converter 2x" (according to service manual 2601-100/2601-600)
?
2604 "80-200mm F4.5-5.6"
2605 "35-80mm F4-5.6"
2606 "100-300mm F4.5-5.6"
2607 "35-80mm F4-5.6"
2608 "300mm F2.8"
2609 "600mm F4"
?
2612 "200mm F2.8"
2613 "50mm F1.7"
?
2615 "28-105mm F3.5-4.5"
2616 "35-200mm F4.5-5.6"
?
2618 "28-80mm F4-5.6"
2619 "80-200mm F4.5-5.6"
2620 "28-70/2.8G" (not listed in Sony's XML file, but found in A100 firmware 1.02)
2621 "100-300mm F4.5-5.6"
?
2624 "35-80mm F4-5.6"
?
2628 "80-200/2.8G" (not listed in Sony's XML file, but found in A100 firmware 1.02)
2629 "85mm F1.4"
?
2631 "100-300/4.5-5.6APO" (not listed in Sony's XML file, but found in A100 firmware 1.02)
2632 "24-50mm F4"
?
2638 "MACRO 50mm F2.8"
2639 "MACRO 100mm F2.8"
?
2641 "20mm F2.8"
2642 "24mm F2.8"
?
2644 "100-400/4.5-6.7APO" (not listed in Sony's XML file, but found in A100 firmware 1.02)
?
2662 "50mm F1.4"
?
2667 "35mm F2"
2668 "28mm F2"
?
2672 "24-105/3.5-4.5D" (not listed in Sony's XML file, but found in A100 firmware 1.02)

Now the same lens table sorted by starting focal length, maximum aperture and - if identifyable - release year:

"----" 2590
"----" 2601
"DT 11-18mm F4.5-5.6" 41
"16mm F2.8 Fisheye" 2578
"Vario-Sonnar T* DT 16-80mm F3.5-4.5 ZA" 46
"17-35mm F2.8-4" 38
"17-35mm F3.5" 16
"DT 18-70mm F3.5-5.6" 40
"DT 18-200mm F3.5-6.3" 42
"20mm F2.8" 2579, 2641
"20-35mm F3.5-4.5" 17
"24mm F2.8" 2566, 2642
"24-50mm F4" 2558, 2632
"24-85mm F3.5-4.5" 6
"24-105mm F3.5-4.5" 24
"24-105/3.5-4.5D" 2672 (not listed in Sony's XML file, but found in A100 firmware 1.02)
"28mm F2" 2596, 2668
"28mm F2.8" 2557
"28-70mm F2.8" 2
"28-70/2.8G" 2620 (not listed in Sony's XML file, but found in A100 firmware 1.02)
"28-75mm F2.8" 39
"28-80mm F3.5-5.6" 18, 30
"28-80mm F4-5.6" 3, 2618
"28-85mm F3.5-4.5" 0, 2552
"28-100mm F3.5-5.6" 36
"28-105mm F3.5-4.5" 10, 2615
"28-135mm F4-4.5" 2553
"35mm F1.4" 19, 2591
"35mm F1.4 G" 43
"35mm F2" 2597, 2667
"35-70mm F3.5-4.5" 5
"35-70mm F4" 2551
"35-80mm F4-5.6" 22, 2605, 2607, 2624
"35-105mm F3.5-4.5" 2554, 2585
"35-200mm F4.5-5.6" 2616
"MACRO 3X-1X F1.7-2.8" 2594
"50mm F1.4" 44, 2562, 2662
"50mm F1.7" 2550, 2613
"MACRO 50mm F2.8" 2564, 2638
"MACRO 50mm F3.5" 9
"50mm F2.8 Macro" 31
"70-200mm F2.8 G" 33
"70-210mm F3.5-4.5" 2588
"70-210mm F4" 2555
"70-210mm F4.5-5.6" 8
"75-300mm F4.5-5.6" 13, 29, 2561
"80-200mm F2.8" 1, 2589
"80-200/2.8G" 2628 (not listed in Sony's XML file, but found in A100 firmware 1.02)
"80-200mm F4.5-5.6" 2604, 2619
"85mm F1.4" 27, 2592, 2629
"85mm F1.4 L" 35
"Planar T* 85mm F1.4 ZA" 45
"100mm F2" 2598
"SOFTFOCUS 100mm F2.8" 12
"MACRO 100mm F2.8" 2581, 2639
"100mm F2.8 Macro" 28
"100-200mm F4.5" 2560
"100-300mm F4.5-5.6" 7, 25, 2606, 2621
"100-300/4.5-5.6APO" 2631 (not listed in Sony's XML file, but found in A100 firmware 1.02)
"100-400mm F4.5-6.7" 14
"100-400/4.5-6.7APO" 2644 (not listed in Sony's XML file, but found in A100 firmware 1.02)
"Sonnar T* 135mm F1.8 ZA" 47
"135mm F2.8" 2556
"135mm F2.8 [T4.5] STF" 20
"200mm F2.8" 2593, 2612
"MACRO 200mm F4" 23
"300mm F2.8" 2563, 2608
"300mm F2.8 G" 32
"300mm F4" 11
"400mm F4.5" 15
"500mm F8 Reflex" 2572
"600mm F4" 2565, 2609

Compare this with the lens IDs found in ExifTool:

1 "AF80-200mm F2.8G"
2 "AF28-70mm F2.8G"
6 "AF24-85mm F3.5-4.5"
7 "AF100-400mm F4.5-6.7(D)"
11 "AF300mm F4G"
12 "AF100mm F2.8 Soft"
15 "AF400mm F4.5G"
16 "AF17-35mm F3.5G"
19 "AF35mm/1.4"
20 "STF135mm F2.8[T4.5]"
23 "AF200mm F4G Macro"
24 "AF24-105mm F3.5-4.5(D) or SIGMA 18-50mm F2.8"
25 "AF100-300mm F4.5-5.6(D)"
27 "AF85mm F1.4G"
28 "AF100mm F2.8 Macro(D)"
29 "AF75-300mm F4.5-5.6(D)"
30 "AF28-80mm F3.5-5.6(D)"
31 "AF50mm F2.8 Macro(D) or AF50mm F3.5 Macro"
32 "AF100-400mm F4.5-6.7(D) x1.5"
33 "AF70-200mm F2.8G SSM"
35 "AF85mm F1.4G(D) Limited"
38 "AF17-35mm F2.8-4(D)"
39 "AF28-75mm F2.8(D)"
40 "AFDT18-70mm F3.5-5.6(D)"
128 "TAMRON 18-200, 28-300 or 80-300mm F3.5-6.3',
25501 "AF50mm F1.7"
25521 "TOKINA 19-35mm F3.5-4.5 or TOKINA 28-70mm F2.8 AT-X"
25541 "AF35-105mm F3.5-4.5"
25551 "AF70-210mm F4 Macro or SIGMA 70-210mm F4-5.6 APO"
25581 "AF24-50mm F4"
25611 "SIGMA 70-300mm F4-5.6 or SIGMA 300mm F4 APO Macro"
25621 "AF50mm F1.4 NEW"
25631 "AF300mm F2.8G"
25641 "AF50mm F2.8 Macro"
25661 "AF24mm F2.8"
25721 "AF500mm F8 Reflex"
25781 "AF16mm F2.8 Fisheye or SIGMA 8mm F4 Fisheye"
25791 "AF20mm F2.8"
25811 "AF100mm F2.8 Macro(D), TAMRON 90mm F2.8 Macro or SIGMA 180mm F5.6 Macro"
25858 "TAMRON 24-135mm F3.5-5.6"
25891 "TOKINA 80-200mm F2.8"
25921 "AF85mm F1.4G(D)"
25931 "AF200mm F2.8G"
25961 "AF28mm F2"
25981 "AF100mm F2"
26061 "AF100-300mm F4.5-5.6(D)"
26081 "AF300mm F2.8G"
26121 "AF200mm F2.8G(D)"
26131 "AF50mm F1.7"
26241 "AF35-80mm F4-5.6"
45741 "AF200mm F2.8G x2 or TOKINA 300mm F2.8 x2"

Seeing the coincidence, if stripping off the 5th digit in all original Minolta lenses?

We are now collecting further lens IDs (by EXIF data) and would like to suggest to you to do the same in your forum...

Knowing lens IDs can be helpful for lens identification purposes in normal photography, but it will also prove to be useful when tracking down compatibility problems.

Emulating the ROM data will not only help to rechip old third party lenses which no longer work with current bodies, it may also help to fix (ADI) flash exposure problems, may possibly enable honeycomb matrix metering and focus indicators on ROM-less lenses such as M42 lenses, it may help to let camera bodies automatically decouple its AF gear when using auto bellows such as the Novoflex BALMIN-AF, and finally (and for me the most interesting idea) it may help to revive the Sigma AF Multi-Converter 1.6x. (There are two variants of this item and they allow to mount either Minolta SR/MC/MD (MD-MA) or Nikon AI lenses (AI-MA) onto Minolta AF bodies, while fully translating all coupling elements such as electrical contacts (dynamic ROM emulation), mechanical aperture lever and AF spindle, thus bringing manual focus auto-aperture lenses to their full potential - no longer forced to use stop-down metering only, freedom of choice between P-A-S-M modes, and no more restrictions to manual focusing only, as these two 5-lens-elements converters have there own built-in focusing mechanism. Thereby it even supports some kind of DMF and wide "feel-good" focusing rings... ;-) Unfortunately, this rare tele mount converter only works with the original AF camera bodies (9000 AF, 7000 AF, 5000 AF), not any of the later bodies - finally, there's a chance to make it compatible and seamlessly use Minolta and Nikon MF lenses on Minolta AF bodies, just as if they were normal Minolta AF lenses. Optically, it's not exactly in the same class as the original Minolta tele converters, however, it was a highly priced item at its time and optically plays circles around any of those cheap 1.2x - 1.3x mount converters with only one or two lens elements.)

BTW, the maximum aperture byte in the lens data is not identical, but corresponds with the aperture byte in the flash protocol just by adding an offset - same granularity of 8 steps per EV. Further, the focal length bytes in the flash protocol is byte-level identical to the focal lens in the lens ROM according to your and mine data.

For cross-reference purposes, here are some interesting links to our forum (German), which often has in-deep technical discussions of Minolta gear similar to what's on Dyxum. :-)

http://www.minolta-forum.de/forum/index.php?showtopic=14914 (thread about lens IDs)
http://www.minolta-forum.de/forum/index.php?showtopic=3695 (thread about lens contacts)
url=http://www.minolta-forum.de/forum/index.php?showtopic=4477&view=findpost&p=50472 (posting about flash data protocol)
http://www.minolta-forum.de/forum/index.php?showtopic=6416&view=findpost&p=74577 (posting with lots of connector pinouts and flash system details)
http://www.minolta-forum.de/forum/index.php?showtopic=10426&view=findpost&p=122551 (Minolta aperture scale, display values plus internal values in 1/1 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/8 EV steps)

Thanks to the members in both forums for investigating this (in particular our "thobo", "Michael H", "archaisch" and "hendriks" who "worked" with me on this tonight and "opelgt" who pointed us to this great thread. ;-)

Keep on the great work!

Matthias

PS. I do own the STF, so I will report the ROM data once I find the time to read it out (not much time right now, though).
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 22:23
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6371&PID=50077#50077

Originally posted by dalibor dalibor wrote:

Hello,
let my add my two cents to this very interesting thread.
I have started to collect Lens IDs two years ago when I have bought my first 7D. The purpose was to display the name of the lens in my Dalifer software, which is the utility for decoding the MakerNote contents.
Dalifer provides you with the most detailed Exif/MakerNote information from all software. And the lite version is free.
See http://www.dalibor.cz/minolta/dalifer.htm
The version available for download is rather old, but I can provide you with a beta version which does have all known LensIDs built-in.

I am very glad that someone is interested in this stuff as well, so we can compare our results.

I can see three different groups of LensIDs:
0-127   = new Minolta lenses
128-141 = Cosina/Voigtlander lenses
>25501 = old Minolta + new Sony lenses
>45711 = Vivitar lenses

In my opinion it makes no sense to study the LensIDs of Sigma, Tokina and Tamron lenses. Those seem to be randomly chosen and they overlap with Minoltas and with each other as well. I think that Cosina/Voigtlander and Vivitar have paid license fees to Minolta and they got its ID range assigned. The others probably didn't want to pay and they use the LensIDs as they want without any logic.
But this leads to a conclusion that the camera firmware either does believe the LensID when fine-tuning the ADI and AntiShake and therefore not work proerly with non-Minolta lenses. Or, as the IDs are not unique, the LensID is not used at all.
What do you think about it?

I would like to point out one interesting LensID, which is 25858. This is the only ID I know so far which does not follow the xxxx1 pattern. This is Minolta 35-105 f3.5-4.5 (new). I thought that the last digit could be a revision number of the lens, but I have not seen the photo with ID 25851 and the other old/new/RS lenses do not use this pattern anyway.

The Michael Hohner's list is a very good piece of work. Just do not expect that every lens listed there has its own ID. Some variants of the lens Michael lists use the same ID (for example 50/2.8 Macro = 50/2.8 Macro RS). And some of the lenses might have two different IDs (for example 85/1.4 RS G and 35-105/3.5-4.5 (Macro) and 35-80/4-5.6 II). But definitely Michael's list is the best refference table and I would suggest to use his naming convention for the lenses.

I was not aware that there is a quest for a LensID database in minolta-forum.de as I do not visit this forum regularly as I do not feel comfortable reading in German, but I am very glad that it is there. I would welcome if we could start such thread here at Dyxum in English and use Matthias as a inter-forum-ambassador. :-)

BTW here is my wish-list for a pictures taken with particular lens, which I would need to make my database complete.

20/2.8 (RS = with rubber focusing grip)
85/1.4 G (D) Limited (longer version)
200/4 Macro APO G
300/2.8 APO G (D) SSM
600/4 HS-APO G

24-50/4 (RS = with rubber focusing grip)
28-80/4-5.6 xi (Macro)
28-85/3.5-4.5 (RS = with rubber focusing grip)
35-80/4-5.6 (II = 49mm thread)
35-105/3.5-4.5 (Macro)
70-210/4.5-5.6 (II = without focus hold button)
100-300/4.5-5.6 APO (the older version with smooth focusing ring)

any lens with/without teleconverter Minolta 1.4x APO (D)
any lens with/without teleconverter Minolta 1.4x APO original
any lens with/without teleconverter Minolta 2x APO original

any Cosina lens
any Vivitar lens
any Voightlander lens
any Opteka lens


Regards,
Dalibor



Edited by hotwire - 24 November 2007 at 23:14
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 22:27
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6371&PID=50138#50138

Originally posted by dalibor dalibor wrote:

Hello Matthias,
I pretty much aggree with everything you have written.


Well, for that very reason, I think it is very important to collect data of these lenses. ;-) After all, Dalifer or any other software trying to use the lens ID in order to look up the actual lens name could be easily extended to not only take into account the lens ID itself, but use the whole ROM contents minus variable data (or a hash code of it, or some specific parameters, such as focal length and max. aperture) as a table key in order to distinguish between all those lenses using the same ID.


Sure, I didn't say to not collect the data. I said that the Lens ID are bogus in many cases.

I doubt that I would be able to identify non-Minolta lenses in Dalifer.
There is only the LensID written in MakerNote. As far as I know the rest of the ROM is not copied into the picture (but I'll re-verify it).
Focal length, aperture and max.aperture are variables and things get VERY complicated by using teleconverters (as some of them change the focal length/aperture and some of them don't).
Therefore I think that there will be always an overlap between various non-Minolta lenses and there will be no method how to determine the lens for sure. It will be just wild guessing in most cases.


Hm, even if they are "false" by what the modern bodies might expect, there is definitely "some logic" behind them.

OK. Try to explain the logic behing this example, please. ;-)
All following lenses have the same ID 25521
Minolta 28-85 f3.5-4.5 Macro (original)
Tamron 17 f3.5
Tamron 19-35 f3.5-4.5
Tokina 19-35 f3.5-4.5 193
Tokina 28-70 f2.6-2.8 AT-X 270 Pro
Tokina 28-80 f2.8 ATX-Pro


Regards,
Dalibor


Edited by hotwire - 28 November 2007 at 05:03
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 22:28
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6371&PID=50215#50215

Originally posted by my-spot my-spot wrote:

In the software I'm writing I provide all of the lens codes I have found in a .csv file that can be easily edited by the end user using excel or a text editor. I don't make any claims about its accuracy but the idea is that most people will not personally own more then one lens with the same ID. If the program displays the wrong lens for a given ID then the user can edit the list so the correct lens is used for a given ID or add the value.
Although the code isn't finished yet, I will make it further filter based on FL and aperture which is also supplied in the list.
A copy of my csv file can be found here...


Edited by hotwire - 28 November 2007 at 05:04
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
 



Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 22:32
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6371&PID=51470#51470

Originally posted by matthiaspaul matthiaspaul wrote:

Since there has been alot of confusion of which tools to use to read out the lens ID, here are some download links:

Exif-Viewer by Ralf Bibinger:

http://www.amarra.de/exif.htm

ExifTool by Phil Harvey:

http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/
(Usage: "exiftool -n")

Dalibor Jelinek also wrote two utilities (see further up in this thread), of which the newer Dalifer tool should be able to read out the lens ID as well:

http://www.dalibor.cz/minolta/dalifer.htm
http://www.dalibor.cz/minolta/exiftool.htm
(NB. *This* (according to its author outdated) "exiftool" is *not* the same tool as the above mentioned "ExifTool"; it has a completely different command line interface and apparently does not provide means to read out the lens ID. Dalibor, maybe you can comment on this as well?)

Hope it helps,

Matthias
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 22:34
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6371&PID=52029#52029

Originally posted by Kiklop Kiklop wrote:

Welcome to dyxum Phil; I really apreciate all your sharings !!

I guess you noticed mention of xml file provided by Sony?


Edited by hotwire - 28 November 2007 at 05:06
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 22:47
This entire topic about lenses missing from the Dyxum database.

http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6750

Edited by hotwire - 28 November 2007 at 05:06
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 22:53
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6371&PID=52678#52678

Originally posted by my-spot my-spot wrote:

This has been a most interesting thread. But we all have separate lists, I have my lens list, Kiklop has the Dyxum List, there is the Sony list, Dalibor has one, Phil has a list, and there are a few others as well. All of us have programs written or in the works that use a LensID list. I propose that we all come up with a common format (.csv or .xml ??) that can be maintained here (Dyxum) that we all can use in our programs. This would assure we all have a consistent and complete list. We would have to make sure all of the fields (LensID, Brand, Name, Min FL, Max FL, Min Ap, Max Ap, etc...) we need are included, etc, etc, etc...
Dalibor, Kiklop, Phil, others... What do you think?


Edited by hotwire - 28 November 2007 at 05:05
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 22:57
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6371&PID=52688#52688

Originally posted by Kiklop Kiklop wrote:

Well, it's up to you guys .. i can't help much here :)
What i can do is:

- formating data that we have collected in xml format if that can be of any use.

- Next, if you are interested i can open a new subforum (maybe under digital darkroom and naming it supported software) where you and our members could share various suggestions, feedbacks etc about software you are developing and that i'm very interested to support here.

- I guess that it would be wise to restrict access to the pages we have worked on and giving priviledges only to those who can actually enter reliable data (Dalibor, Phil, my-spot, matthiaspaul and all those interested in participating). This is to avoid some "bad person" screwing our efforts.

- we can try to invite dyxum members to submit one image (straight from the camera) from all (well .. most) lenses we have in our database and host them on dyxum. This may make your job a bit easier.

And, just as i said before .. i'm open for suggestion since i really like community spirit of this thread .. after all this is what dyxum is for.


In fact... most of that entire page from the "Lens ROM data" topic is probably a good idea to read.

Edited by hotwire - 28 November 2007 at 05:05
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 22:59
Current Lens ID List on Dyxum:

http://www.dyxum.com/dAdmin/lenses/MakerNoteList_Public.asp?stro=lens

And to edit data for that page:

http://www.dyxum.com/dAdmin/lenses/EditLensMakerNote_Public.asp?IDManofacturer=16

Edited by hotwire - 24 November 2007 at 23:00
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 23:07
Finally, important people that we need for this to work:

Kiklop (naturally)
Dailbor
boardhead, author of ExifTool
my-spot, author of rawhide

I believe this is all the relevant background information we have on this.

My next question of important is this: does anyone know what focal lengths appear in Minolta EXIF data? I know not every millimetre shows up.

I think it's safe to unlock this topic now.

Edited by hotwire - 24 November 2007 at 23:18
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
hotwire View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 August 2006
Country: Canada
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Posts: 1053
Post Options Post Options   Quote hotwire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2007 at 05:51
I have spent part of today going through my lenses and recording the focal lengths they provide info on. Surprisingly, the lenses don't necessarily have the same intervals of focal length recording. I need some more time on this (tomorrow hopefully), where I will get the max apertures at each respective focal length (for the variable aperture zoom lenses), but I figured I should post the values I have observed with my lenses:

Sig 12-24: 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 22, 24mm
KM 17-35 D: 17, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 35
KM 28-75/2.8: 28, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50 55, 60, 70, 75
Sony 70-200 G: 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 100, 105, 110, 120, 130, 135, 140, 150, 160, 180, 200
Min 100-300 APO: 100, 120, 135, 140, 150, 160, 180, 200, 210, 230, 250, 280, 300               
Tamron 24-135: 24, 28, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 100, 110, 135
Sony 18-70: 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 70     
Min 28-135: 28, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 70, 75, 85, 90, 100, 110, 120, 135
Min 70-210/4: 75, 90, 100, 105, 120, 130, 135, 150, 160, 180, 200, 210

What this means in layman's terms: depending on the lens you mount, you may set the lens for a particular focal length, but your exif will not necessarily list that focal length. It will only list the nearest interval of focal length.

As a clear rule, the interval of the exif recorded focal length is proportional to the focal length.

Generally, from 0-20mm (approx), it records in 1mm intervals, with some exceptions of 2mm lengths (though notably my sample here is very limited, and I don't have anything less than 12mm)

From 20-30, it appears to all be in 2mm intervals, with one exception (no 26mm or 30mm on the my Tamron 24-135).

From 30mm and up things get interesting. Some intervals of 5mm, some of 10, and some 30mm intervals, but very little in consistency. Seems to all depend on the lens.

If anyone wants to discuss this project with me, please pm me, or even send me a message on msn and we can maybe talk real-time. I still need to figure out the most effective way of logging and presenting this information, and would love some feedback on that.
a99ii; Maxxum 9

CZ: 16-35, 24-70/2.8, 135/1.8; Minolta: 50/1.4; MC58/1.2; 85/1.4GD 300/2.8; 500/8; 600/4; Tam: 90/2.8M; Sig: 12-24/4.5-5.6; 15/2.8; Sony: 35/1.4G; 135STF, 70-200/2.8G
Back to Top
Dyxum main page >  Forum Home > Dyxum Community > Knowledge Base Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.079 seconds.

Monitor calibration strip

Dyxum.com - Home of the alpha system photographer

In memory of Cameron Hill - brettania

Feel free to contact us if needed.