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Minolta 1200 Ring flash

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Post Options Post Options   Quote michelb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2022 at 01:17
The moment you move the flash head from its direct straight ahead position, the body/flash will revert to TTL or Pre-Flash TTL depending on the body.

Notes from the Maxxum 7 instructions since there is very little in the flash instructions:

- With 3600,5600HS(D) and D lens: ADI metering with HSS pre-flash TTL
- With built-in flash: ADI metering without pre-flash
- TTL 4 segment flash metering will be used instead of ADI/Pre-flash when HSS is OFF, bounce flash is set or when an off-camera cable is used to connect multiple flash units. TTL average metering will be used instead of ADI/Pre-flash when rear flash or mirror lock-up function is selected.

These features are probably different with digital bodies so checking your own body instructions may show different behavior.

Michel B
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote XKAES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2022 at 01:00
It's nice to hear that I'm not the only one who finds this topic interesting.

The idea behind ADI is not reading TTL light, but basing the amount of light used on the distance from the flash to the subject. Since the camera determines the distance, it assume that the flash is on the camera, but it should work perfectly well as long as the flash is the same distance away from the subject as the camera -- not necessarily attached to it.

Many of Minolta's early rangefinder cameras incorporated GN lenses for flash use -- which set the f-stop of the lens as the lens was focused, providing perfect flash exposure. With these cameras, the flash could be moved off-camera using a cable -- and the exposure would be correct, as long as the flash was at the same distance as the camera.

As to your question, it probably depends on the flash, but any ADI flash SHOULD switch ADI OFF if the flash is tilted, swiveled, or removed from the shoe. But as I mentioned before, the Minolta 2500D ADI flash does not have the ADI sensor/tab on the shoe -- like most of the others. I suspect that this is true of some other flashes -- especially if they are not Minolta/Sony.

Keep in mind that to have ADI flash, you have to have a camera, and a lens, and a flash that are all ADI capable.

Edited by XKAES - 12 May 2022 at 01:18
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil Wood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2022 at 00:54
May I add a query in this interesting discussion.

In my ignorance I assumed that ADI was just a slightly more sophisticated TTL mode.

If I have a ADI capable flash in the hot shoe can I point the flash in any other direction than straight at the subject? Bouncing the light is my default in the field to avoid red-eye and soften the light, often with a diffuser over the flash as well. Not that I use any flash very often.

In essence bouncing this offers the same issues as having the flash on a cable - the camera does not know the distance of the light path, or the intensity of light that will reach the subject.

Does the camera default to a TTL mode if the flash head is tilted or turned?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote XKAES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 20:50
I'm only interested in using my AF flashes (Minolta 2500D & 3600HSD) off camera with ADI. The 2500 does not have the "off-camera" sensor/tab on the shoe, so that should work fine. The 3600 does have the sensor/tab so I'll need an off-camera cable without the hole -- or find one with the hole and fill it in. A small removable piece of plastic should do the trick.

But before I go to the cost of an off-camera cable, I'd like to see if someone else can confirm off-camera ADI flash.

I've got to assume that someone has already tried this.

My Sony cameras use the four-prong iISO flash shoe.

Edited by XKAES - 11 May 2022 at 20:54
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 20:31
It's a trivial matter,
Since the MFC-1000 does not have a light emitting part in the flash body, the distance information based on the body is meaningless.
In other words, ADI is not possible, so it will always be P-TTL and switching should not be necessary.
Maybe it's just the same parts as the HS3600 (D).

FYI:
An off-camera operation description for the Multi Interface shoe can be found on Wikipedia.
Multi Interface Shoe

From this information, there seems to be a way to deceive the off-camera state as on-camera.
I sold the 99II so I can't try it.
Nor did I have excessive expectations for ADI.
The D-lens distance encoder does not have sufficient accuracy and is far from the required accuracy, especially in the macro range.

Edited by gigo - 11 May 2022 at 20:43
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Post Options Post Options   Quote XKAES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 20:17
Originally posted by michelb michelb wrote:

Funny that you noticed the 2500(D) does not have it. My copy is the same.

So yes, you should try the 2500(D) on an off camera cable to see if it does work in ADI.



I would if I could, but I can't. I don't have any off-camera DYXUM cable. Just one more reason to buy one -- I quess?!?!?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote michelb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 19:36
I checked all of my OS-1100 off camera shoes and some date back to 1988 when i purchased them new for a fortune, and they ALL have this little indent.
Now, this indentation was probably introduced for another feature or need for communication with the flash/body since ADI was only introduced in 2001, how could they plan to let the flash/body know of the off camera position if the feature did not exist. The introduction of the i series of shoes with this was at a time, Minolta was promoting "Fuzzy Logic" ( Kind of an ancestor to today's Artificial Intelligence) as a way for the camera to analyse numerous pieces of Data to help obtain better exposure so this could be a part of why they were letting the body know the flash was off camera. But to what purpose ?

Same applies to ALL the Sony AM family of flash units from HVL-F20AM to HVL-F58AM, they all have the tab on the inner portion of the hot shoe.

As for Minolta units, the 2000i, 5200i, 3500xi, 5400xi, 5400HS and MFC-1000 (only missing a 3200i and 2000xi) all have the tab and some were introduced years ahead of the adoption of ADI. Even Manfrotto WL supports that allowed mounting of an xi/HS WL flash on lighting supports had this indentation. And i also have a Vello OFF camera cable and shoe (all in one) that also has the indentation.

Funny that you noticed the 2500(D) does not have it. My copy is the same.

So yes, you should try the 2500(D) on an off camera cable to see if it does work in ADI.

Michel B
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Post Options Post Options   Quote XKAES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 14:44
Originally posted by neilt3 neilt3 wrote:

Not dumb , just common sensed if you understand how ADI flash control works .


I understand how ADI flash works, and I still think the way it's set up is dumb.

If I have an ADI-capable flash on a camera bracket -- for convenience and to avoid red-eye -- the distance to the subject is exactly the same, and ADI flash would be a great benefit.

Minolta -- and later Sony -- added a fifth tab on the shoe on the early AF flashes, which is difficult to see. It's off to the side -- but inside the foot slot -- and basically tells the flash that it is on the camera. When the flash is not on a camera, the tab is not depressed, and the flash will not fire in ADI mode. Some early Minolta AF ADI flashes, such as the D2500 do not have his tab -- and I assume they will operate in ADI mode off-camera.

I haven't checked out all of the Minolta off-camera cables, but I assume that very early AF off-camera flash cables lacked the oval hole, simply because the early AF flashes did not have ADI flash capability. And looking at the NON-Minolta/Sony off-camera flash cables, some have the oval hole, and some don't -- such as this Promaster version. Using an ADI-capable flash with this cable should allow for ADI use off-camera, such as a camera bracket or at arm's length.

I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in this.





Edited by XKAES - 11 May 2022 at 15:14
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 12:40
The topic is getting off and on, but I have a question that I can't answer for a long time.
The E-Mount camera doesn't have an ADI / P-TTL switching menu.

ADI: Pre-flash + distance information.
P-TTL: Pre-flash only.

Is this because ADI has progressed and P-TTL is no longer needed, or is ADI abolished because the disadvantages of ADI outweigh the advantages?
Or has automatic switching progressed to the point where manual switching is not necessary?

I don't care about the method because the results are all, but I'm curious.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote neilt3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 08:22
Originally posted by XKAES XKAES wrote:



It's too bad that the existence of that hole prevents using the flash in ADI mode on a camera bracket. Seems kind of dumb to me.


Not dumb , just common sensed if you understand how ADI flash control works .
The camera works out how much power is required for correct illumination based on the distance from the target .
If the flash is held off camera , the camera has no idea where the flash is or which way it is pointing or how far away it is from the target .
Therefore it can't use the distance information from the lens to calculate the required power , so reverts to pre-flash TTL metering , as already explained.

If Minolta hadn't made it work this way everyone that tried using their flash off camera would be complaining how bad ADI flash was and their exposures were always wrong , not accepting things are off due to them not setting the camera and flash up correctly .


Edited by neilt3 - 11 May 2022 at 08:26
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Post Options Post Options   Quote XKAES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 03:12
Originally posted by michelb michelb wrote:

If this oval hole was filled, maybe it would fool the system


I appreciate the information. There are several NON-Minolta/Sony off-camera flash cables available. I'm going to check some of them out to see if they saved a few pennies and didn't bother to add that hole. And, of course, filling in the hole would be easy, anyway. It might be worth the trouble.

It's too bad that the existence of that hole prevents using the flash in ADI mode on a camera bracket. Seems kind of dumb to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 02:59
The 99II manual also states that if you use the flash with an off-camera, it will automatically become P-TTL.
If you cannot automatically detect the situation where ADI cannot be used, such as when the wide panel cannot be detected with an old flash, be careful to switch to P-TTL in the menu.

FYI:
Off camera flash accessory list.

Minolta OC-1000, ISO-cable-plug
Minolta OC-1100/Sony FA-CC1AM, iISO-cable-plug
FA-CS1M, Mi-Mi w/socket
Minolta OS-1100/Sony FA-CS1AM, ISO-iISO w/socket
Minolta OS-1000, ISO-ISO w/socket
Minolta Cable EX/Sony FA-EC1AM,socket-cable-plug
Minolta Cable CD/Sony FA-MC1AM,plug-cable-plug
Minolta TC-1000/Sony FA-TC1AM

Unfortunately, most of these are obsolete. (I have so many of these that the box is full )
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Post Options Post Options   Quote michelb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 02:11
On the Minolta Off Camera shoe OS-1100 (also present on WL stands MS-1 and MS-2), there is a small notch at the side of the shoe that lets a pin on the flash know it is off camera. See the long oval shaped hole on the right side of the shoe here. This is what is telling the body that the flash is off camera.
Sony used the same shoe for its A-mount flash units and when they changed to MIS, they have so many connectors on there that there is likely a provision for something similar on that new shoe but probably now electronic.



If this oval hole was filled, maybe it would fool the system but i am not going to spend time on this

And just a small correction on something someone mentioned here: The power necessary to provide proper lighting by flash is actually the flash/subject distance. In the case of ADI, and this is why it is limited to direct on camera flash is the the flash is at the same distance as the camera since it is directly above the body.


Edited by michelb - 11 May 2022 at 02:18
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Post Options Post Options   Quote XKAES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 02:02
If I have my flash off-camera connected to the hot shot by a cable, how would the camera know that the flash is not on the camera?

I know that with a flash titled upward that the camera can tell it is not pointed forward, but simply connected to a correct cable won't tell the camera anything different.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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