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Minolta 1200 Ring flash

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michelb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote michelb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 19:36
I checked all of my OS-1100 off camera shoes and some date back to 1988 when i purchased them new for a fortune, and they ALL have this little indent.
Now, this indentation was probably introduced for another feature or need for communication with the flash/body since ADI was only introduced in 2001, how could they plan to let the flash/body know of the off camera position if the feature did not exist. The introduction of the i series of shoes with this was at a time, Minolta was promoting "Fuzzy Logic" ( Kind of an ancestor to today's Artificial Intelligence) as a way for the camera to analyse numerous pieces of Data to help obtain better exposure so this could be a part of why they were letting the body know the flash was off camera. But to what purpose ?

Same applies to ALL the Sony AM family of flash units from HVL-F20AM to HVL-F58AM, they all have the tab on the inner portion of the hot shoe.

As for Minolta units, the 2000i, 5200i, 3500xi, 5400xi, 5400HS and MFC-1000 (only missing a 3200i and 2000xi) all have the tab and some were introduced years ahead of the adoption of ADI. Even Manfrotto WL supports that allowed mounting of an xi/HS WL flash on lighting supports had this indentation. And i also have a Vello OFF camera cable and shoe (all in one) that also has the indentation.

Funny that you noticed the 2500(D) does not have it. My copy is the same.

So yes, you should try the 2500(D) on an off camera cable to see if it does work in ADI.

Michel B
 



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XKAES View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote XKAES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 20:17
Originally posted by michelb michelb wrote:

Funny that you noticed the 2500(D) does not have it. My copy is the same.

So yes, you should try the 2500(D) on an off camera cable to see if it does work in ADI.



I would if I could, but I can't. I don't have any off-camera DYXUM cable. Just one more reason to buy one -- I quess?!?!?
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gigo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 20:31
It's a trivial matter,
Since the MFC-1000 does not have a light emitting part in the flash body, the distance information based on the body is meaningless.
In other words, ADI is not possible, so it will always be P-TTL and switching should not be necessary.
Maybe it's just the same parts as the HS3600 (D).

FYI:
An off-camera operation description for the Multi Interface shoe can be found on Wikipedia.
Multi Interface Shoe

From this information, there seems to be a way to deceive the off-camera state as on-camera.
I sold the 99II so I can't try it.
Nor did I have excessive expectations for ADI.
The D-lens distance encoder does not have sufficient accuracy and is far from the required accuracy, especially in the macro range.

Edited by gigo - 11 May 2022 at 20:43
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Post Options Post Options   Quote XKAES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 20:50
I'm only interested in using my AF flashes (Minolta 2500D & 3600HSD) off camera with ADI. The 2500 does not have the "off-camera" sensor/tab on the shoe, so that should work fine. The 3600 does have the sensor/tab so I'll need an off-camera cable without the hole -- or find one with the hole and fill it in. A small removable piece of plastic should do the trick.

But before I go to the cost of an off-camera cable, I'd like to see if someone else can confirm off-camera ADI flash.

I've got to assume that someone has already tried this.

My Sony cameras use the four-prong iISO flash shoe.

Edited by XKAES - 11 May 2022 at 20:54
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil Wood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2022 at 00:54
May I add a query in this interesting discussion.

In my ignorance I assumed that ADI was just a slightly more sophisticated TTL mode.

If I have a ADI capable flash in the hot shoe can I point the flash in any other direction than straight at the subject? Bouncing the light is my default in the field to avoid red-eye and soften the light, often with a diffuser over the flash as well. Not that I use any flash very often.

In essence bouncing this offers the same issues as having the flash on a cable - the camera does not know the distance of the light path, or the intensity of light that will reach the subject.

Does the camera default to a TTL mode if the flash head is tilted or turned?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote XKAES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2022 at 01:00
It's nice to hear that I'm not the only one who finds this topic interesting.

The idea behind ADI is not reading TTL light, but basing the amount of light used on the distance from the flash to the subject. Since the camera determines the distance, it assume that the flash is on the camera, but it should work perfectly well as long as the flash is the same distance away from the subject as the camera -- not necessarily attached to it.

Many of Minolta's early rangefinder cameras incorporated GN lenses for flash use -- which set the f-stop of the lens as the lens was focused, providing perfect flash exposure. With these cameras, the flash could be moved off-camera using a cable -- and the exposure would be correct, as long as the flash was at the same distance as the camera.

As to your question, it probably depends on the flash, but any ADI flash SHOULD switch ADI OFF if the flash is tilted, swiveled, or removed from the shoe. But as I mentioned before, the Minolta 2500D ADI flash does not have the ADI sensor/tab on the shoe -- like most of the others. I suspect that this is true of some other flashes -- especially if they are not Minolta/Sony.

Keep in mind that to have ADI flash, you have to have a camera, and a lens, and a flash that are all ADI capable.

Edited by XKAES - 12 May 2022 at 01:18
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michelb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote michelb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2022 at 01:17
The moment you move the flash head from its direct straight ahead position, the body/flash will revert to TTL or Pre-Flash TTL depending on the body.

Notes from the Maxxum 7 instructions since there is very little in the flash instructions:

- With 3600,5600HS(D) and D lens: ADI metering with HSS pre-flash TTL
- With built-in flash: ADI metering without pre-flash
- TTL 4 segment flash metering will be used instead of ADI/Pre-flash when HSS is OFF, bounce flash is set or when an off-camera cable is used to connect multiple flash units. TTL average metering will be used instead of ADI/Pre-flash when rear flash or mirror lock-up function is selected.

These features are probably different with digital bodies so checking your own body instructions may show different behavior.

Michel B
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Post Options Post Options   Quote XKAES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2022 at 01:24
The question is "How, and in what ways, can a flash exposure be kept in ADI mode when the ADI flash is removed from the camera?".

For example, since the Minolta 2500D ADI flash lacks the OFF-CAMERA sensor/tab, it should operate in ADI mode if removed from the camera -- but probably not if it is tilted.

Can other ADI flashes retain ADI mode when used OFF-CAMERA with a cable, if the cable lacks the OFF-CAMERA sensor/tab hole -- assuming they are not tilted?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2022 at 14:16
FYI:

All of the items in the picture except ADP-MAA and ADP-AMA have been discontinued. There seem to be some compatible products.


Edited by gigo - 13 May 2022 at 14:33
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Phil Wood View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil Wood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 16:58
I have recently acquired an MFC-1000 control unit to use with my 1200 ring flash. After some trial and a lot of error I have it working nicely in manual mode (1/64 power, ISO 100, 1/80s, f16).



However, any attempt at TTL leaves me with a black frame. The flash fires, presumably out of sync with the shutter. Any idea as to what I am doing wrong?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote michelb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 17:08
Which Camera body ?
If MIS shoe body, which adapter ?
Michel B
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Post Options Post Options   Quote amrep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 17:52
Originally posted by Phil Wood Phil Wood wrote:

TTL leaves me with a black frame.

(In the camera menu select TTL flash and NO electronic first curtain shutter. I assume you already have these settings correct).

Then try this to make you started with TTL:
Set to the aperture to F11 or smaller, alternatively turn off two of the tubes on the ring flash, or do both.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil Wood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 21:28
I tried with an A99ii and adapter (Pixel I think) but moved to an A77 to rule out adapter issues.

The problem was the front curtain shutter - which was on.

Now it's off:


A77, Min AF 100 macro

So much better than the LED ring flash I've been using.

Thanks for the help!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote XKAES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 00:45
As a follow-up, I just ordered an iISO off-camera flash cable. Inexpensive and it looks like it does not have the flash ADI sensor/tab/switch hole -- not a problem if it does.

It has a standard iISO shoe on each end -- unlike most (ALL?) OF Minolta's MAXXUM off-camera cables.

I'll give it a test to see if I can get off-camera ADI flash, It would be nice to use an ADI flash on a camera bracket -- and still have the ADI advantages.

I'll run some tests when I get it and report back.

Edited by XKAES - 19 May 2022 at 01:34
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