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Noise in higher pixel cameras
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Dena View Drop Down
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Posts: 1112 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Noise in higher pixel cameras
    Posted: 24 September 2023 at 19:24
I wish I could link to his post, but a guy on fb says higher megapixel cameras make more noise at high ISO than lower magapixel cameras. Thoughts?

This fellow is obsessed with noise in his photos. I don't think it's that big a deal, just part of a bigger picture.   
 



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Harm vb View Drop Down
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Posts: 3022 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Harm vb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2023 at 19:38
Smaller pixels have to be amplified more to show the same amount of light as larger pixels, compare the Sony A7s to a A7r. The S is for low light conditions.

But, modern camera's are better than those of 10 or 20 years ago.

Imho: don't listen to him
Harm with 3 camera's and too many lenses.
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Jonas A-R View Drop Down
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Posts: 1748 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jonas A-R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2023 at 19:43
It is a fallacy caused by 100% pixel peeping which results in different magnification depending on the pixel size.
Observed at the same size there is no significant difference.
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waldo_posth View Drop Down
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Posts: 8327 		Post Options Post Options   Quote waldo_posth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2023 at 20:18
Just my personal experience, shooting both, Sony A7RM2 and A7RM4 (about 20 mp difference in resolution): I more often need to denoise the images taken by the A7RM4 - at least I do see more noise with the higher resolution camera (all other parameters equal).
"Stare, pry, listen, eavesdrop. Die knowing something. You are not here long." (Walker Evans)   http://www.flickr.com/photos/waldo_posth/
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Maffe View Drop Down
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Posts: 12437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Maffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2023 at 20:51
Pixel peeping yes, in real life (print) the opposite is true, did this comparison when Nikon d700 was the lowlight king and compared it with a900. On screen the different pixel counts make it hard to look at the same thing and the d700 looked better. In print the edge was on the a900 side.
Think dpreview made a few articles about this, including printing large and high megapixel beat low

So don’t worry about getting more pixels to work with😉
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addy landzaat View Drop Down
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Posts: 16229 		Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2023 at 21:04
Originally posted by waldo_posth waldo_posth wrote:

Just my personal experience, shooting both, Sony A7RM2 and A7RM4 (about 20 mp difference in resolution): I more often need to denoise the images taken by the A7RM4 - at least I do see more noise with the higher resolution camera (all other parameters equal).


I basically never use any denoising with my A7r4 - are you looking at 100% or at the full picture? As you are magnifying by a third if you do this, from 42mpx to 61mpx.

I find noise not a problem at all with higher pixel cameras. I remember a video by the Northrops with the Canon EOS 5Ds, a 50mpx camera. They proofed clearly that when you equalize the output, the higher pixel count is beneficial - especially in detail and because of that, it is better for denoising.

Look at the DXoMark results of the 42mpx A7r2 to the 61mpx A7r4: https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-A7R-II-versus-Sony-A7R-IV___1035_1326
Equalized for "print" the difference is negligeable. So, no, higher pixelcount cameras are not nosier.

More important then noise is dynamic range and colour accuracy. It seems I never limit my ISO because of noise, but I do due to limited dynamic range or colour issues.
Why not follow me on Instagram? @Addy_101
 



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Jonas A-R View Drop Down
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Posts: 1748 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jonas A-R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2023 at 21:14
Higher resolution takes noise reduction better.

See Jim Kasson’s demonstration here Non-linear noise reduction

Edited by Jonas A-R - 24 September 2023 at 22:13
a1 20/1.8G 21/2.8 Loxia 35/1.4GM 50/1.2GM 85/1.4GM 90/2.8G Laowa 100/2.8 2:1 100/2.8GM STF 135/1.8GM 24-105/4G 100-400/4-5.6GM 200-600/5.6-6.3G 1.4x 2x TC
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Maffe View Drop Down
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Posts: 12437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Maffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2023 at 21:24
Had to look for that Dpreview TV episode

Edited by Maffe - 24 September 2023 at 21:27
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Dena View Drop Down
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Posts: 1112 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2023 at 05:56
Originally posted by waldo_posth waldo_posth wrote:

Just my personal experience, shooting both, Sony A7RM2 and A7RM4 (about 20 mp difference in resolution): I more often need to denoise the images taken by the A7RM4 - at least I do see more noise with the higher resolution camera (all other parameters equal).


Thanks. A friend, different person than I first mentioned, says her camera is awful with this. a7r4. To the point most photos must be denoised and MW photos are unusable. She also has a a7r3 and it is much better in this area. I'm wondering if the a7r4 is a lemon. Sony rep said her trouble is typical in high MP sony cameras, but I can't imagine this much trouble. She is not a beginner.
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addy landzaat View Drop Down
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Posts: 16229 		Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2023 at 08:50
No, the A7r4 is no lemon. I love mine and I never denoise.

If you look at the measurements by DxoMark the difference is small. At a pixel level the 42mp A7r3 is better but at a global level there is no difference. Dpreview describes it as "Slightly noisier than its predecessor at the highest ISO values" - I prefer the results of my 61mp A7r4 over my 42mp A7r2 and A99m2 (same sensor as the A7r3) - I feel my A7r4 has better colours.

What was the background of that Sony rep? Because there are clear advantages to a high pixel camera and saying that it is "typical in high MP sony cameras" is nonsense (and the A7r3 is a high mp camera as well...).

But if she is unhappy with the A7r4, she should probably sell it. No matter we say, she will never like the camera. And she should join us here
Why not follow me on Instagram? @Addy_101
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