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Panasonic mirrorless FF Discussions/News/Rumours

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sybersitizen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2018 at 16:56
Originally posted by 5thElefant 5thElefant wrote:

With the ever upward pressure of smartphones and downward pressure of full frame I doubt apsc figures much in anyone’s future strategy.

Originally posted by Swede101 Swede101 wrote:

The upward pressure has killed 1" interchangeable systems ...

All working in my favor so far. I've had a lifelong affinity for dead or dying systems (Minolta SR, Minolta AF, Konica Minolta SLR, Sony SLT) that nevertheless cover my needs. Also quite happy with small sensor results. The RX100III is rockin' and I just bought a Nikon V2 with a couple of lenses for 1/10 the cost of a similar full frame setup.

Keep that pressure from the top coming!
 



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Jonas A-R View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jonas A-R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2018 at 18:17
Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

Originally posted by 5thElefant 5thElefant wrote:

With the ever upward pressure of smartphones and downward pressure of full frame I doubt apsc figures much in anyone’s future strategy.

Originally posted by Swede101 Swede101 wrote:

The upward pressure has killed 1" interchangeable systems ...

All working in my favor so far. I've had a lifelong affinity for dead or dying systems (Minolta SR, Minolta AF, Konica Minolta SLR, Sony SLT) that nevertheless cover my needs. Also quite happy with small sensor results. The RX100III is rockin' and I just bought a Nikon V2 with a couple of lenses for 1/10 the cost of a similar full frame setup.

Keep that pressure from the top coming!


A similar?
a9 a6300
21/2.8 Loxia 35/1.4Z 50/1.4Z 85/1.4GM 90/2.8G Laowa 100mm F2.8 Ultra Macro 100/2.8GM 135/1.8GM
12-24/4G 24-105/4G 100-400/4-5.6GM 2x TC
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sybersitizen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2018 at 18:41
Originally posted by Jonas A-R Jonas A-R wrote:

A similar?

One of the new full frame mirrorless cameras with similar features like fast hybrid AF and tracking, image stabilization, silent shutter, 1/16,000s top shutter speed, 15fps with AF, 60fps without ... and 28-80mm and 80-300mm (equivalent) lenses. Stuff like that.

The sensor sizes, the body/lens sizes, and price sizes are not similar. :)
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2manycamera View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2manycamera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2018 at 19:00
Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

Originally posted by 5thElefant 5thElefant wrote:

With the ever upward pressure of smartphones and downward pressure of full frame I doubt apsc figures much in anyone’s future strategy.

Originally posted by Swede101 Swede101 wrote:

The upward pressure has killed 1" interchangeable systems ...

All working in my favor so far. I've had a lifelong affinity for dead or dying systems (Minolta SR, Minolta AF, Konica Minolta SLR, Sony SLT) that nevertheless cover my needs. Also quite happy with small sensor results. The RX100III is rockin' and I just bought a Nikon V2 with a couple of lenses for 1/10 the cost of a similar full frame setup.

Keep that pressure from the top coming!


Absolutely agree!While I have been investing in E/FE glass, the pressure on A-mount lenses has been wonderful for my GAS condition. In August I bought a new Sigma 1.4/16mm DC DN on eBay for $382 ($449 less 15% coupon). Over the last 9 months, I have also purchased: new Sony SAM 2.8/85mm, shelf display Sony SAM 2.8/30mm macro and a mint Sigma 18-300mm, all for $380! While I love the a6300 and a7 cameras, my a77 is seeing almost as much use as the other two combined in the last year, due to these purchases.

However, I must admit the a850 is finally feeling too heavy for any casual use.
7D a68 a99 a6600 a7Rii 16/2.8 24/2.8 28/2 35/2 50/1.4 100/2 200/2.8 24-70CZ 1.8/135 80-200/2.8 24-105 28-135 300/4 16-50DT 70-300G Tam 90/2.8, E55-210 E2/12 Sig E1.4/16,30 & 56, FE15/4.5V
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Jonas A-R View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jonas A-R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 October 2018 at 16:23
Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

Originally posted by Jonas A-R Jonas A-R wrote:

A similar?

One of the new full frame mirrorless cameras with similar features like fast hybrid AF and tracking, image stabilization, silent shutter, 1/16,000s top shutter speed, 15fps with AF, 60fps without ... and 28-80mm and 80-300mm (equivalent) lenses. Stuff like that.

The sensor sizes, the body/lens sizes, and price sizes are not similar. :)


Indeed, I had a V1 and it was a marvel of a tech breakthrough which really pointed to what was possible with a mirrorless system.
a9 a6300
21/2.8 Loxia 35/1.4Z 50/1.4Z 85/1.4GM 90/2.8G Laowa 100mm F2.8 Ultra Macro 100/2.8GM 135/1.8GM
12-24/4G 24-105/4G 100-400/4-5.6GM 2x TC
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Miranda F View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 October 2018 at 12:57
Originally posted by 5thElefant 5thElefant wrote:

With the ever upward pressure of smartphones and downward pressure of full frame I doubt apsc figures much in anyone’s future strategy.


If that is so, I guess it represents the apparent market view of FF as still the leading target to meet. But given how different the technology of film and semiconductor, there is no obvious reason why a new camera system should use the same size sensor as pre-WWI cinema film.

Or indeed the standard 3x2 format. Smartphones mostly use a wider format, and some compact cameras use 9x16 or 4x3. Even if we stick to 3x2, APS-C does most of what people actually need, and if they want more DOF then arguably a larger format will do it better still.

And whatever your own personal preferances are on the sensor size issue, surely there is an end in sight to the concept of a single sensor size which is best? Most of us have cameras with two, three, or four different sensor sizes in them*, and for good reasons.

FF, APS-C, ppossibly 1" or 1/1.7" compact camera, and 1/2.3" smartphone camera.



Edited by Miranda F - 02 October 2018 at 13:00
Miranda F & Sensorex, Sony A7Rii, A58, Nex-6, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras ...
 



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eldonito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eldonito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 October 2018 at 20:56
Originally posted by 5thElefant 5thElefant wrote:

With the ever upward pressure of smartphones and downward pressure of full frame I doubt apsc figures much in anyone’s future strategy.


Yikes, I get your point, and I hope it doesn't turn out that way. IMHO, APS-C represents such a sweetspot in terms of portability, sensor DR/noise, processing/power demands, overall system price and (with the right lens) DOF. I say this having never used 4/3 so I'm aware that the above points could also apply there.

As for smartphones, for all their increasing capabilities (including recent ability to simulate a shallow DOF), it's not so obvious how they would ever match camera aesthetics (admittedly a subjective opinion) or camera ergonomics: human anatomy (hands, a solid grip, etc) largely contributed to the shape cameras have evolved to today, while phones have been shaped by design pressures for different handling, not as pertinent to taking photos. So I would hope that camera formats with a solid enthusiast appeal (4/3, APSC) aren't on their way out in a hurry.

A bit more on topic, I would think one reason for FF desirability is its perceived pro appeal, and associated prestige. Panasonic announcing a FF camera could be as much a financial call ("we'll make $$$ out of this") as a move to appease shareholders and fans ("all serious pros use FF, and we're a serious company in it for the long run"). Nevertheless, it's a big achievement, so kudos to them!
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5thElefant View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 5thElefant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 October 2018 at 22:05
Originally posted by eldonito eldonito wrote:

Originally posted by 5thElefant 5thElefant wrote:

With the ever upward pressure of smartphones and downward pressure of full frame I doubt apsc figures much in anyone’s future strategy.




As for smartphones, for all their increasing capabilities (including recent ability to simulate a shallow DOF), it's not so obvious how they would ever match camera aesthetics (admittedly a subjective opinion) or camera ergonomics: human anatomy (hands, a solid grip, etc) largely contributed to the shape cameras have evolved to today, while phones have been shaped by design pressures for different handling, not as pertinent to taking photos. So I would hope that camera formats with a solid enthusiast appeal (4/3, APSC) aren't on their way out in a hurry.



Apsc always was the ‘I want a camera and have plenty of money’ class of camera. The 90% who only had the kit lens and never left Auto. Many of those are now ‘I don’t need a camera my smartphone is great’.
Simon α900|A7|RX10|DXO
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2018 at 08:29
Originally posted by 5thElefant 5thElefant wrote:


Apsc always was the ‘I want a camera and have plenty of money’ class of camera. The 90% who only had the kit lens and never left Auto. Many of those are now ‘I don’t need a camera my smartphone is great’.

Hardly. APS-C was always the cheapest 'proper' digital ILC.

But doubtless there are lot of users like that (my daughter is one. I've lent her different lenses but she rarely uses them) but there are plenty of people using APS-C cameras 'properly' with lots of lenses, and many (including myself) who have either tried FF and found no benefits to it, or have never bothered because it doesn't give them anything they can't do on APS-C and the extra cost step is a deterrent (though perhaps it may not be for ever - FF mirrorless does look like a fashion statement to me rather than an actual need).

I put it to you that only a small proportion of photographers regularly use the narrow-DOF capability of their cameras, and very few use the fast-action low light capability either. In more than 40 years using film cameras, I never did either, despite having lots of cameras and fast prime lenses which would do both. If I was following fast action, I panned the camera and got the background blurred, and in low light I used a tripod and a time exposure to make the people disappear ...

... and on those occasions when I wanted narrow DOF I moved back and used a telephoto lens. I do the same now quite effectively on APS-C because getting narrow DOF on a tele lens is so easy you don't need an FF sensor.

Edited by Miranda F - 03 October 2018 at 08:35
Miranda F & Sensorex, Sony A7Rii, A58, Nex-6, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eldonito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2018 at 09:16
Originally posted by 5thElefant 5thElefant wrote:


Apsc always was the ‘I want a camera and have plenty of money’ class of camera. The 90% who only had the kit lens and never left Auto. Many of those are now ‘I don’t need a camera my smartphone is great’.


Can't argue with that, I certainly know the type. But the same pressure could be exerted to FF or any ILC system -- especially since a FF camera with a kit lens isn't as expensive as it used to be. A7's have auto mode too :-)

Another thing contributing to the longevity of crop sensors is that they always precede FF in tech advancement: from digital SLRs to begin with, then SLTs and mirrorless: a crop sensor will always require less power and processor speed than a FF one, so it's a springboard for innovations.

Of course, many photographic innovations are also happening in smartphones; the software-based ones should be relatively easy to translate to a FF system, but hardware tech will benefit from maturing in a crop-sensor system before getting implemented into FF. I would think that it's much rarer that tech developed in FF "trickles down" to crop-sensor systems.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mestari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2018 at 20:29
Well, the backside illuminated sensor was one such example, but generally you are right.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eldonito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2018 at 07:45
I didn't know that -- thanks for pointing it out!
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Jonas A-R View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jonas A-R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2018 at 09:34
Originally posted by Mestari Mestari wrote:

Well, the backside illuminated sensor was one such example, but generally you are right.


Backside illuminated sensors were not developed first in large sensors if that is what you are saying?

This was the first BSI sensor available for consumer electronics: Sony press release
It had an area of ~16mm2

It was implemented in cell phones from at least 2011:
cell phone BSI

1" and APS-C BSI sensors were implemented in cameras from at least 2015:

Nikon 1 J5
Samsung NX500

Edited by Jonas A-R - 04 October 2018 at 09:43
a9 a6300
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kefkafloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2018 at 17:10
A lot of cutting edge sensor tech debuts in small sensors first because it's much easier to yield them. BSI and the stacked sensor tech (along with phase-detect pixels) were all small-sensor developments before they moved on to larger formats.
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