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RAW vs. cRAW

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Vivec View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Vivec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2010 at 02:32
Originally posted by Shatun Shatun wrote:

I do remember the mp3 inovation time. At that moment a lot of people told that there is no differences and they loafing from others who told that they could hear the difference. The same I can say about Dolby True HD and lossy Dolby Digital. A bit wrong comparation between sound and image but I hope it helps to show my opinion.


Thanks for the good discussion Shatsun. However, I don't agree with the MP3 comparision. Technically, it is clear that MP3 is lossy, and as such it is much more close to JPG for images. cRAW is harder to compare: it is algorithmically almost loss-less and much closer to lossless compression like the huffman used in DNG. If there is some loss of precision, it is hard to quantify how much this is visible since only some precision is lost which (in my opinion) will always fall within the noise.

 



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roweraay View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote roweraay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2010 at 03:30
Originally posted by Vivec Vivec wrote:

Originally posted by Shatun Shatun wrote:

I do remember the mp3 inovation time. At that moment a lot of people told that there is no differences and they loafing from others who told that they could hear the difference. The same I can say about Dolby True HD and lossy Dolby Digital. A bit wrong comparation between sound and image but I hope it helps to show my opinion.


Thanks for the good discussion Shatsun. However, I don't agree with the MP3 comparision. Technically, it is clear that MP3 is lossy, and as such it is much more close to JPG for images. cRAW is harder to compare: it is algorithmically almost loss-less and much closer to lossless compression like the huffman used in DNG. If there is some loss of precision, it is hard to quantify how much this is visible since only some precision is lost which (in my opinion) will always fall within the noise.



All good arguments but the point Kiklop made earlier was a very pointed one, which I am fully in alignment with.

What he stated is that CURRENT RAW converters are unable to notice much of a difference between the output from the RAW and cRAW, but that might change in the future, with significantly more sophisticated RAW processors on the way. So when those RAW processing engines with much higher capabilities become available, having the best possible raw material to work with, would be a big plus than having a compromised (however close to the original it may be) version.

The best possible file version currently available, is RAW and not cRAW or JPEG or any other format. Bottomline, if you absolutely want to save a few MB of space per file, then go ahead and continue to shoot cRAW but if that extra space is not such a heavy lift, then just go with RAW....there are no downsides to shooting RAW, is there ?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gnatsum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2010 at 03:31
Wow, I have no had the time to read this thread and didn't realise there were so many stern cRaw zealots around looking for shreds of evidence and documentation approved by the all correct photography authority.

I don't know about some of you guys but I'm no lab monkey so I don't conduct misleading controlled tests that are designed to prove my points. Nor do I like to write dissertations on digital sensor science.

I'm a photographer and I shoot photos.

And if there's one thing that I know about RAW vs cRaw is this:

Firstly unless you have a 12 bit display, no one is viewing a 12 bit image.

When we shoot raw, we have 12 bits data, most of which cannot be viewed at the same time, unless we compress the data, by lifting shadows and pulling highlights.

cRAW DEFINITELY does NOT have the same highlight headroom as a full raw image and it is not possible to pull highlights as much as with a 12 bit raw.

Don't kid yourself that you are viewing a 12bit jpeg after you edit your raw. And 16 bit tiff, wow unless you are loaded and can afford a screen that displays 16 bit images, don't even go there.

craw essentially has the same dynamic range as a jpeg.

14 bit raw takes it to an even higher level where there is immense dynamic range, again, not all viewable at once, but much more can be captured in a single raw file, to be compressed into a viewable 8 bit jpeg.

Your only other option is to take many 8 bit jpgs and make an HDR. but then you still just have 8 bits.

Sorry I didn't pass my phd so I can't back all that up, but feel free to show me your own shreds and documents.

If you don't like what I have to say then you can skip my post and call me a fool. but try shooting a scene one day with craw and then raw and compare your highlight headroom.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Vivec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2010 at 04:27
Hi Gnatsum,

Relax, no-one is being a 'zealot' here -- different opinions and viewpoints is what makes Dyxum a lively place

Originally posted by gnatsum gnatsum wrote:

I'm a photographer and I shoot photos.


That's cool -- and you are right: whehter using craw or raw is probably not going to matter for the photo.

Originally posted by Gnatsum Gnatsum wrote:

cRAW DEFINITELY does NOT have the same highlight headroom as a full raw image and it is not possible to pull highlights as much as with a 12 bit raw.


I respectfully disagree here; read my earlier post for the details: cRaw can accurately represent the highest highlights and darkest darks. The only case where a potential loss of precision occurs in a (super) high contrast range within 16 pixels with subtle hues. But even there, the loss of precision is minimal.

Anyway, I have made my points. Everyone can have their own viewpoints and should use what they feel best about -- photography should be fun
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Post Options Post Options   Quote evangelos k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2010 at 04:43
Originally posted by Vivec Vivec wrote:

Hi Gnatsum,

Relax, no-one is being a 'zealot' here -- different opinions and viewpoints is what makes Dyxum a lively place

Originally posted by gnatsum gnatsum wrote:

I'm a photographer and I shoot photos.


That's cool -- and you are right: whehter using craw or raw is probably not going to matter for the photo.

Originally posted by Gnatsum Gnatsum wrote:

cRAW DEFINITELY does NOT have the same highlight headroom as a full raw image and it is not possible to pull highlights as much as with a 12 bit raw.


I respectfully disagree here; read my earlier post for the details: cRaw can accurately represent the highest highlights and darkest darks. The only case where a potential loss of precision occurs in a (super) high contrast range within 16 pixels with subtle hues. But even there, the loss of precision is minimal.

Anyway, I have made my points. Everyone can have their own viewpoints and should use what they feel best about -- photography should be fun


cRAW it is then! That's what you said, right?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pegelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2010 at 05:11
Originally posted by gnatsum gnatsum wrote:

Wow, I have no had the time to read this thread and didn't realise there were so many stern cRaw zealots around looking for shreds of evidence and documentation approved by the all correct photography authority.


gnatsum, before accusing others of being zealots without even reading the whole thread it might be more appropriate to explain where your conclusions that cRAW is 8 bit and looses highlight headroom is coming from. From everything else I've read both of these statements are not correct.

cRAW is lossy (to what extend is another matter) so if you want to play sure and not loose anything shooting RAW is probably the only way to guarantee that. If you're happy with the current cRAW quality and don't need anything more in the future cRAW will save you a lot of storage space. So there is no right answer, it all depends on your requirements. For me as a hobby photographer I've determined cRAW is good enough but I can understand people preferring RAW for the reasons mentioned in some posts of this thread.

Edited by pegelli - 17 August 2010 at 05:27
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