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relative size difference m43/APS/FE

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LAbernethy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote LAbernethy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2021 at 21:34
As you say "to each their own". As I've had people point out to me "there is no FE-mount, just E-Mount". You put that FE100-400 on an A6600 and you're there.
For close focus wide open the DOF is equally useless. At headshot portrait distance? Meh, I've never had client pay me to have them mostly out of focus. The difference on the SAL2470Z at F2.8 and F8 is not exactly night and day.
[IMG]DSC09195 by Lee Abernethy, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]DSC09197 by Lee Abernethy, on Flickr[/IMG]
 



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addy landzaat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2021 at 21:51
Originally posted by LAbernethy LAbernethy wrote:

The M4/3 did much better in the low light interior shots (a beautiful Christmas tree display at the Capitol Theater in Port Hope, Ontario) due to it's superior IBIS.
That is not an characterisctic of the sensor size. Want better IBIS in full-frame then older Sony's? Get a newer Sony or a Canon for even better IBIS.

We will not bother mentioning the size/weight difference, which is laughable.
Yep, that is an advantage of a smaller sensor. Though the Sony A6x00 cameras are really small.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote LAbernethy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2021 at 22:11
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Originally posted by LAbernethy LAbernethy wrote:

The M4/3 did much better in the low light interior shots (a beautiful Christmas tree display at the Capitol Theater in Port Hope, Ontario) due to it's superior IBIS.
That is not an characterisctic of the sensor size. Want better IBIS in full-frame then older Sony's? Get a newer Sony or a Canon for even better IBIS.


actually, it is a characteristic of sensor size. smaller the sensor better the IBIS. yes, new cameras or different cameras or different lenses you can get different results. For better IBIS, I bought a new Olympus. Sony wanted better IBIS, they sub-contracted Olympus.
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addy landzaat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2021 at 22:36
Originally posted by LAbernethy LAbernethy wrote:

actually, it is a characteristic of sensor size. smaller the sensor better the IBIS. yes, new cameras or different cameras or different lenses you can get different results. For better IBIS, I bought a new Olympus. Sony wanted better IBIS, they sub-contracted Olympus.
What is it? Sensor size or the Olympus technology?
Canon IBIS is considered to be better then Sony IBIS.

Anyway, for equivalence theory, look here: https://www.dyxum.com/dforum/equivalence-theory_topic133769_page1.html
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LAbernethy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote LAbernethy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2021 at 22:59
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:



Anyway, for equivalence theory, look here: https://www.dyxum.com/dforum/equivalence-theory_topic133769_page1.html

Yep, that's theory, I thought we were talking reality, in use, actual photography.
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pegelli View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pegelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2021 at 09:12
Originally posted by LAbernethy LAbernethy wrote:

As you say "to each their own". As I've had people point out to me "there is no FE-mount, just E-Mount". You put that FE100-400 on an A6600 and you're there.
For close focus wide open the DOF is equally useless. At headshot portrait distance? Meh, I've never had client pay me to have them mostly out of focus. The difference on the SAL2470Z at F2.8 and F8 is not exactly night and day.
I think the 70-350 on the A6600 is much smaller than the 100-400 but yes, it's great to have options.

And smaller dof at shorter distances can be useless to you, that's fine, but maybe not for others.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2021 at 11:47
I couldn't find a lens in the Panasonic or OMD-System (Olympus) line up that is comparable to the Sony 70-350G on the A6600. The closest I could find is the Panasonic 100-300mm lens - which is slightly longer on the long end, but much shorter at short end (being a 3x zoom compared to 5x for the Sony). I was surprized, as I expected that the advantage of the smaller sensor would result in more small hobbyist wildlife lenses. For a size comparison: Camarasize

With the smallest lenses, 28mm eq. the A6600 with the 20/2.8 is comparable to the OM-D EM 1 mark III with the 14/2.5. Sony really worked on keeping its APS-C cameras small. Neither can reach the smallness of the Ricoh GR3: Camerasize

Anyway, I believe sensor size matters - less then some think and more then other think. I also think there is a place for M43, especially in wild life and as a smaller option. However, it seems small cameras are not as sexy as the huge Nikon Z9.....

----

Edit: checked Lee's picture and found he is using the Olympus 75-300, it is slightly smaller then the other two lenses, but still not as wide. And with f/6.7 on the long end (vs. f/5.6 for the Panny and f/6.3 for the Sony): Camerasize

Edited by addy landzaat - 06 December 2021 at 12:22
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jonas A-R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2021 at 11:51
Originally posted by LAbernethy LAbernethy wrote:

Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:



Anyway, for equivalence theory, look here: https://www.dyxum.com/dforum/equivalence-theory_topic133769_page1.html

Yep, that's theory, I thought we were talking reality, in use, actual photography.


That is a silly thing to say.
A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that has been repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results.

I recommend Joseph James' essay on the subject as an easy to read introduction to this pretty basic concept:
Equivalence

It is not overly difficult to understand why equivalent lenses tend to be the same size
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Post Options Post Options   Quote LAbernethy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2021 at 12:18
Originally posted by Jonas A-R Jonas A-R wrote:

Originally posted by LAbernethy LAbernethy wrote:

Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:



Anyway, for equivalence theory, look here: https://www.dyxum.com/dforum/equivalence-theory_topic133769_page1.html

Yep, that's theory, I thought we were talking reality, in use, actual photography.


That is a silly thing to say.
A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that has been repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results.

I recommend Joseph James' essay on the subject as an easy to read introduction to this pretty basic concept:
Equivalence

It is not overly difficult to understand why equivalent lenses tend to be the same size

I'm actually offended by that comment. Which is weird because I am really hard to offend.
Theory is good. I like theory. It makes for good bedtime stories. Prevailing theories exist until they're replaced with new ones.
The equivalence theory is very nice. It creates strife wherever it goes because it keeps banging into reality and the practical.
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addy landzaat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2021 at 12:26
Originally posted by LAbernethy LAbernethy wrote:

The equivalence theory is very nice. It creates strife wherever it goes because it keeps banging into reality and the practical.
Can you elaborate? I agree that the relevance of equivalence theory at times is overstated, but it does describe reality I think. I can test it and seems correct. What am I missing?
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pegelli View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pegelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2021 at 12:28
Well, if you can show that the background unsharpness of a shot on M43 at f2.8 compared to a shot at f2.8 on FF at double the focal length is the same you can discard the theory. Otherwise the theory is valid. It might not be important for your style of shooting but that's no reason to discard the theory in general.

And I agree, calling something you don't agree with "silly" is not helping to have a meaningful technical discussion.

So let me also repeat this:

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Post Options Post Options   Quote LAbernethy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2021 at 12:40
I wasn't offended by "silly". I was offended by "A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that has been repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jonas A-R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2021 at 14:40
Originally posted by LAbernethy LAbernethy wrote:

Originally posted by Jonas A-R Jonas A-R wrote:

Originally posted by LAbernethy LAbernethy wrote:

Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:



Anyway, for equivalence theory, look here: https://www.dyxum.com/dforum/equivalence-theory_topic133769_page1.html

Yep, that's theory, I thought we were talking reality, in use, actual photography.


That is a silly thing to say.
A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that has been repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results.

I recommend Joseph James' essay on the subject as an easy to read introduction to this pretty basic concept:
Equivalence

It is not overly difficult to understand why equivalent lenses tend to be the same size

I'm actually offended by that comment. Which is weird because I am really hard to offend.
Theory is good. I like theory. It makes for good bedtime stories. Prevailing theories exist until they're replaced with new ones.
The equivalence theory is very nice. It creates strife wherever it goes because it keeps banging into reality and the practical.


I apologise for the "silly" comment. As to the theory quote upthread: that was from the wiki article on the subject. Theory as used in science is rather different from the everyday usage of the term. The theory of equivalence is scientific and it does not bang into reality. At the contrary, it predicts the behaviour of sytems very accurately. I challenge you to find a single example which runs contrary to the theory.
A theory can sometimes be improved such as the relativity theory which superseeded Newtonian physics. That, however, does not stop Newtonian physics to work just as well as it used to. We have just become aware that it's power is restricted under certain well understood limits.
a9 a6300
21/2.8 Loxia 35/1.4Z 50/1.4Z 85/1.4GM 90/2.8G Laowa 100mm F2.8 Ultra Macro 100/2.8GM 135/1.8GM
12-24/4G 24-105/4G 100-400/4-5.6GM 2x TC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2021 at 15:52
Originally posted by LAbernethy LAbernethy wrote:

The equivalence theory is very nice. It creates strife wherever it goes because it keeps banging into reality and the practical.

I'd like to understand in what way you think it bangs into reality and the practical.

There are certainly cases where equivalence doesn't precisely predict real world results because it (intentionally and necessarily) omits variables like specific lens characteristics and sensor generations. But I haven't found any instances where it has gone far astray, as long as those other variables are acknowledged. What I have found is that many who raise objections around equivalence have simply made incorrect assumptions about what it is intended to predict.

Originally posted by LAbernethy LAbernethy wrote:

I was offended by "A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that has been repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results."

I'd also like to understand why you find a definition of 'theory' offensive.

Edited by sybersitizen - 06 December 2021 at 16:06
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