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Sexism in Photography

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artuk View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote artuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2017 at 20:02
Originally posted by QuietOC QuietOC wrote:

Originally posted by artuk artuk wrote:

Richard, speaking as a non-professional, photography appears to be predominantly a male pursuit, both professionally and as a hobby.

I see female photographers about 20:1 to males out in parks shooting wedding parties or graduation pictures. Actually I am not sure if I've ever come across a professional male photographer in the wild. Maybe I am just not seeing them.


All I can say is that if you go to UK photo shows, they are male dominated, often with bored looking partners in tow. Most professionals I have seen, which is mostly in Asia, are men. I can only comment from my own experience. I don't think the general industry is 20:1 female:male.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2017 at 20:03
Originally posted by Maxxuman Maxxuman wrote:

Speaking as a professional photographer who has worked for plenty of female professional photographers and who is aware of many, many more female professionals and hobbyists through various Facebook photography groups I can assure you that it's not by any means a predominantly male pursuit.


And I see a lot of young women with DSLRs now, more than young men. And that's great.

EDIT: Part of post deleted by me, going off-topic!

Edited by Miranda F - 22 September 2017 at 20:22
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2017 at 21:30
I know more female professional photographers then male photographers. The four times I was photographed by a professional photographer the last five years or so was three times by a woman and once by a male - and the women were much better then the one guy
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Post Options Post Options   Quote artuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2017 at 21:39
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

I know more female professional photographers then male photographers. The four times I was photographed by a professional photographer the last five years or so was three times by a woman and once by a male - and the women were much better then the one guy


I suspect my view is influenced by my regular travels to Asia, where in general attitudes are probably several decades behind Europe. At events I attend, I have only seen 1 female videographer, with every other photographer being male. At such events, the women are mostly deployed in the typical role of looking pretty for the male audience.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote waldo_posth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2017 at 15:06
Originally posted by artuk artuk wrote:

(...)

Richard, speaking as a non-professional, photography appears to be predominantly a male pursuit, both professionally and as a hobby.

(...)


Just for the (historical) record: The first photographers were indeed male - they had studios (glass houses - before the advent of artificial lighting). Photography was overwhelmingly studio photography - portrait photography, of single persons or of whole families. These portraits were formal - a way of the male breadwinner to present his family to the outside world, to his peers. The use of those photos was to show off your family (even if clothes and props were borrowed from the studio photographer as often was the case). The production of these photos involved quite some technical (male) knowledge.

Studio photography lost much of its importance when photography became a popular pursuit. And popularizers were - mostly young - women. The (heavily advertised) "Kodak Girl" in the first two decadees of the 20th century produced a different type of image: family photos (and photos of other gregarious events) which were not intended to be formal portraits to be shown off to the world outside the family, but informal snapshots about what happened within the family (or circle of friends) and to be used exclusively inside this circle.

The difference between male studio photography and female family photography very much resembles the division of labor between the sexes in Victorianism: The male breadwinner had to rationally master the competition in a male world completely separated from the family. His wife was responsible within the circle of the family to rear the children, to provide the "emotional management" to balance out whatever crises would invade this holy space from outside.

Women today do double shifts - they are full-time employed and at the same time take care of the family as well. The difference between a male - formal, representative - and a female - informal, emotional - photography may already have vanished. I do recognize a "male view" in images which do present their subjects like trophies (butterflies, birds ... - no ffense intended) - but here I would enter a very controversial ground, I quess.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ricardovaste Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2017 at 13:10
Originally posted by artuk artuk wrote:

You go to a photo show and every other booth has a scantily or provocatively clad pretty model pouting for an army of sweaty fat middle aged men all getting slightly hot under the collar.   


I've only ever been to one, a few years ago, in B'ham. I saw exactly the scene you describe. It was so hilariously disturbing! Never been to one since
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Post Options Post Options   Quote artuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2017 at 16:50
Originally posted by ricardovaste ricardovaste wrote:

Originally posted by artuk artuk wrote:

You go to a photo show and every other booth has a scantily or provocatively clad pretty model pouting for an army of sweaty fat middle aged men all getting slightly hot under the collar.   


I've only ever been to one, a few years ago, in B'ham. I saw exactly the scene you describe. It was so hilariously disturbing! Never been to one since


I've been to various incarnations of the UKs largest photography show, mostly not on the professional days, and it's always like it. So was Photokina, where Sony had female models in skin tight silver lycra spinning around overhead on trapezes, as the equivalent European men got all sweaty and did their excited deep breathing. I believe as an "enthusiast hobby", it's male dominated - that's not to say that women don't have cameras and take photos, but as they lack the "male collection gene", perhaps they are much less interested in going to trade shows etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2017 at 18:01
Originally posted by artuk artuk wrote:

... that's not to say that women don't have cameras and take photos, but as they lack the "male collection gene", perhaps they are much less interested in going to trade shows etc.

If there's such a male gene, there's also a similar female one. I have seen evidence of it in my own home, and other homes, with things like clothing, shoes, dishes and cookware, knick-knacks, plants, photographs, and - interestingly - medals honoring athletic achievements.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jkp1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2017 at 18:37
Somehow I feel sorry for her.
I feel sorry for her because she feels the whole world are against her because...... she is a female.

But hey....lets look around.....

In the Eighties, I visited the Microtechnic trade fair in Zürich Schwitzerland. I attended because I wanted to follow the trend within measuring equipment and quality control. My clothing was a pair of Levis, a t-shirt and a sweater over the shoulder.

I wanted to visit the booth of Sip, because they were about high quality measurement equipment an machining. I tried to get in contact with the sellers, waiting waiting waiting, and whenever a salesperson left a conversation, they just went to talk to somebody else, and those somebody else was always invited to a glass of wine and a talk inside the privat room of the booth. Funny, every other customer wore a penguin suit and a tie. I really tried a number of times. In the end I went into this private room and interfered the communication, The salesman looked angry at me and asked why I were so rude to interrupt this business talk. In the same tone as him, I explained to him that I have been waiting for 1,5 hour and were always left in the back.
He gave me the helikopter look, asked If I actually had any serious to discuss. I didn't wear a suit and a tie and I was just plain mistreated because of that. (hey, I´m not a woman !)
Then I just said to him, that I had 3 million danish kroner (approx 400000 euro) to spend on his equipment, but with this "service" I was about to walk away. Then he started to get interested and asked for which company I was representing. I gave him my business card, and immediately he was heavily interested in talking to me.
In very direct way, I explained to him what I was about to buy, but I lost interest with Sip and would buy competitors products. He started licking my butt, followed me when I left his booth, begging to talk,
I bought competitors equipment and went back to Sip booth, just to show them my order. He lost a big sale, just because he didn't liked the way I was dressed.... In opposition to the story of that photographer, I even is of male breed....

Lets jump a bit....a male studio photographer shooting ladies or even buduoir .....if you are above lets say 45 years old, you are immediately seen like a dirty old buggar, where the female photographers dont get this mistrust. Irritating yes, Ok ? no...
Or you males try to shoot your kids in a public pool or on a beach, and compare to when a woman do the same.....
You can get Pi--ed, or you can carry on, its up to you and me whats the best to do for ourselves.

Long story, what I am about to say......difference in approach happens everywhere, prejudice is everywhere....and dragging the discussion down to only whats between the legs are just lame.

Yea...life sucks, but you ( that photographer too) can take control of your life, decide whats best for you, what to leave out, what not to tolerate, when to just raise your shoulders and walk on. Just playing the gender card doesn't do anyone a favor, because the world is much more complex than only whats between your legs.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote artuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2017 at 18:50
Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

Originally posted by artuk artuk wrote:

... that's not to say that women don't have cameras and take photos, but as they lack the "male collection gene", perhaps they are much less interested in going to trade shows etc.

If there's such a male gene, there's also a similar female one. I have seen evidence of it in my own home, and other homes, with things like clothing, shoes, dishes and cookware, knick-knacks, plants, photographs, and - interestingly - medals honoring athletic achievements.


I'm only going to comment on men, for fear of getting myself into hot water - but men like technical stuff, and collection/ownership - hence needing every box set of a TV show, every CD by an artist, every lens by a marque, have "top trumps" conversations in the pub/bar about car specifications, camera specifications etc. etc.

The female equivalent is perhaps more influenced by aesthetics - and not a source of bragging?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2017 at 19:54
Originally posted by jkp1 jkp1 wrote:

Somehow I feel sorry for her.
Are you sure? I think you didn't adres her being kissed on the mouth and almost forced to take a dick-pick - that to me is the real stuff.

Originally posted by artuk artuk wrote:

I'm only going to comment on men, for fear of getting myself into hot water - but men like technical stuff, and collection/ownership - hence needing every box set of a TV show, every CD by an artist, every lens by a marque, have "top trumps" conversations in the pub/bar about car specifications, camera specifications etc. etc.

The female equivalent is perhaps more influenced by aesthetics - and not a source of bragging?
I almost completely agree - just one thing: women also brag, but about different things then men.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodworth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2017 at 21:40
Originally posted by Maxxuman Maxxuman wrote:

Originally posted by Woodworth Woodworth wrote:


I think that women probably experience more prejudice from men, than the other way around but I get the impression that Susan is making more of her bad experiences in order to write an article and make a (rather tired) point.


I strongly disagree with that. I saw the comment thread on Facebook when Susan initially threw out the idea of sexism in the industry - prior to making her own lengthy post. Many female photographers, including some I've worked with myself, contributed horror stories of sexist treatment they've received while working. It's not an exaggeration - it happens and hopefully by shining a light on it more people will understand what a problem it is and try to help counter it.


Both men and women are subject to sexism, it's not an exclusively female reserve.

The sexual revolution happened over 40 years ago which is why I say that it's a tired complaint. We don't have true equality yet and there are people out there that are aggressively against the opposite sex (both male and female) and who make their feelings plain. Fortunately they are in the minority at least on this side of the pond.

If a small number of men and women still subject the opposite sex to prejudice they won't learn by reading this article.

The values that we have as adults are learned as small children and so men and women who are sexist learned that from those responsible for their upbringing. Likewise they will probably teach their children those values.

I don't think that real complaints about sexism are exaggerated but I do think that it is a rather flimsy article that seems to be based on a rather small number of incidents, some of which have been interpreted as sexism but which may have not have been intended to be so.

I'm not am apologist for sexists, no matter their gender or the high office they may hold in certain countries, I won't Trump-et their values as they disgust me.

I hope we can all value each other as well as read the comments they make just a little more carefully before condemning them.
Chris

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 September 2017 at 17:14
For my own .02 ... What I see is a very segmented industry, not a monolithic one.

Of the wedding photographers I have observed, the vast majority (though not all) are women, at more than a 5:1 ratio; this is just noticing shoots going on near wherever I happen to be, so it's hardly scientific data!

At events -- parades, fairs, protest-marches, etc -- the professional photojournalists are VASTLY skewed the other way; it's an even stronger ratio, more like 10:1 or more in favor of the guys. Again, this is "anecdotal" not "scientific."

I don't even particularly think my observed data is "representative" or "valid" or whatever term you want to use... But it's what I've seen personally.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote angora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 September 2017 at 07:55
hiya, girl here! a rare breed here at Dyxum. and does that make Dyxum a discriminating place?
(typically left side of the brain though that the technical fora are so popular?).

I've read what she said and I understand what she's saying. but, as Addy said, describing society?
and it's everywhere...?

and obv. it's not about her. it's about the idiots crossing her path?
the dick guy sounds like he was really wasted? and the kiss, well, obv. the photographer (or whatever) still looked like a girl?
did you know, btw, that most women (who make an effort to look pretty) really start to worry at a certain age because construction workers are no longer whistling or shooting things?
age/stages of life obv. has a lot to do with her rant as well.
don't think someone like Annie Leibovitz can -still- refer to this?

the salesMEN is a classic, heard many pro photography girls moan about simular experiences. or is photography still mainly a man's world? like it has always been?
I grew up with photography (and motorcycles, cars, tools, a.o.). playing with my daddy's toys...
(not my mommy's! although she had a drivers license for motorbikes as well).

acquainted with many photographers. many girls among them, but (say more than 20 years ago, when one really needed to make an effort to come to grips with the technical stuff and had to do his (/her) homework to understand aperture, s.speed n so on) they used to be men. only?

there are lots of girls-with-a-camera out there nowadays. totally annoying since many of them obv. think the purchase of a E 1,200 camera automatically makes them a photographer. and act accordingly.
I've met an elderly lady who purchased Nikon 5200 and is therefore a 'wedding photographer' now.
out of the blue she said she didn't get the aperture thing, not a clue what aperture was.
and, when I gave her a blank stare, "well, you just take 6 pics and at least 1 will be fine?"
we (girls) refer to them as 'auntie Truus'-with-a-camera. and they are ruining business for the girls who are real wedding photographers. (+ 'reputation' perhaps?). asking ridiculous prices. it's a serious prob.
haven't heard that about men (the uncle Johns + cameras? ;-)) yet?

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