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Should I feel bad?

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Fivepin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fivepin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2016 at 17:41
Very simple really.
You start your own business now. Registered under your Name. So essentially you are already there. You then subcontract for him on an annual renewable deal. That way...no hard feelings. Business is Business. Remember. He's not your friend..and in the end..sounds like the type you don't want to be working with anyway. Subcontracting is mutual respect. If he doesn't want you back. End of deal. If you want to leave end of deal. End of story.
G.R.
 



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thornburg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thornburg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2016 at 17:42
Originally posted by AudioDoc AudioDoc wrote:

Originally posted by thornburg thornburg wrote:



There are still lots of disgruntled old men (and maybe disgruntled old women, I'm not sure) working in the industry -- often running a shop, and not actually doing that much photography themselves anymore.

They are not the future of the industry.


Sounds like "old people" bashing to me! Don't think you have to be "old" to be disgruntled! Don't forget there are plenty of "old guys and gals" in this forum!

As for my opinion on the topic (not a pro, but old), it does not sound like a good fit, if you are truly interested in having your own business. There are plenty of other ways to gain experience and or learn photography.

emphasis added

Not at all intended.

I intended the emphasis to be on "disgruntled", and really was using "old" as a synonym for "set in their ways".

Not fair, I know.

I have great respect for the members of Dyxum, young, old, and in-between. Many of them are better at this trade than I will ever be, and I appreciate the wisdom they (and the others) share.
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Miranda F View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2016 at 18:27
Originally posted by thornburg thornburg wrote:

The way you're describing this gives me bad vibes.

Reminds of some people who tried to rope me into something (sometimes I learned the hard way, others I got skittish about and found out from other people that I had been right to avoid them).

If this guy is guilt tripping you already, what is it going to be like in the future?


My wife has had similar experiences (not in photography) because she is a lot less cynical than I am (though that's probably why she gets the offers!). There do seem to be a lot of people who just take and take until you either have a row or leave.

But, as Photosopher says, it's much better to form good working relationships when you can, ones that will allow an amicable parting and survive the separation. As an engineer I've had both kinds of separation, and have been mostly changing (permanent) jobs every 2-3 years (for a variety of reasons, not solely as a principle). In engineering too, the combination of technical skills and the ability to work without a minder are so difficult to find today that anyone who has them shouldn't have much difficulty in getting paid to use them, if they're prepared to go where the work is.

Maybe the important question is whether the OP can manage successfully on his own, or whether the need for training/experience is the critical factor?

Edit: I should add that I'm confident of my technical abilities as an engineer, but though I have been self-employed as a contractor, I certainly wouldn't attempt to run my own business doing it - there's a lot more involved in that!

Edited by Miranda F - 24 March 2016 at 18:32
Miranda F & Sensorex, Sony A58, Nex-6, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras . . .
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sybersitizen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2016 at 18:32
Photosopher - you oughtta write a book (if/when your regular work allows). I'd read it!
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thornburg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thornburg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2016 at 18:34
Originally posted by sybersitizen sybersitizen wrote:

Photosopher - you oughtta write a book (if/when your regular work allows). I'd read it!


+1

I'd pre-order.

I expect an Amazon listing within a year.   
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Photosopher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Photosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2016 at 19:03
Oye... I appreciate that. Maybe when I'm old and dis-girdled. Till then I'll settle for following Dyxum while awaiting Premiere to render. I wouldn't have time for this if Adobe products were faster.
 



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thornburg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thornburg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2016 at 19:09
Originally posted by Photosopher Photosopher wrote:

Oye... I appreciate that. Maybe when I'm old and dis-girdled. Till then I'll settle for following Dyxum while awaiting Premiere to render. I wouldn't have time for this if Adobe products were faster.


The solution is to have a farm of 4 or more top-end Mac Pro computers...

What's $20,000 compared to waiting a little while, anyway?



(I don't actually know if Premiere supports using a render farm... I know some competitors have it)

If you already have a render farm, and you're still waiting forever... well... happy reading?
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Photosopher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Photosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2016 at 19:26
Cut Dyxum out of my workflow? Then I'd have to raise my rates... to buy the farm so to speak.

FYI... I only web browse during consignment jobs. Day and hourly rates are web free, call free, text free.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeUptonWrites Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2016 at 19:41
Wow! Thank you for all the responses! This was more than I expected. I think I'm going to have another meeting with this guy and really put all our cards on the table. My business is already registered with the state, so subbing under him as my business is definitely an option.

As far as the training/experience goes, I know I could definitely use it. This photog I'll be working with does have a lengthy history and he's one of the top photographers in the state.

Photosopher, yes please write a book! I think this guy is kind of on the fence between being that old school mentality and the new mentality you were talking about. He's willing to train and develop people, but when talking about his previous employees, he wasn't exactly pulling any punches. I recall the words "total loser" coming up when talking about his third main photog quitting to stay at home and be a full time stay at home dad.

Like I said, I'm gonna have to have a sit down with him and really put all my cards on the table. I know he's been peeping my Facebook page and YouTube channel, so he's going to see that I'm not just giving up my business. What I'm looking to get out of this relationship is insight into the business end. I want to know how he does it while having what I think is a mediocre looking website and almost no social media presence. I told him I want to accompany him to bridal shows, networking events and the like. But I don't think I made it entirely clear to him that I'm not just giving up my business. I do have a few weddings booked, and I'll be damned if he expects me to just drop those!

I'll give him at least one wedding season, maybe two, to gather as much experience, training, and vendor relationships as possible all the while continuing with my own work. I'll work out a deal where he's subbing me out so when I need to break the chain, I can do so without hard feelings.

Thank you guys again for the advice, and keep it coming if you've got more. I'm willing to read as much as you guys are willing to type!
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Photosopher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Photosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2016 at 19:57
Get your book keeper (you have one... right?) to file an S Corp status. This is beyond LLC.
Open two bank accounts. One for business, another for personal. Write yourself a payroll check.
You'll save 15% self employment tax. Otherwise... you'll pay a lot more taxes than you should.

Don't overthink this man. Just smile and wave. Compliment him and his hard work. He deserves to have a bit of an attitude. Respect that, that he's survived in an industry where many others have failed. Let him know you are interested in long term relationships. Observe and be available. Don't be tempted to defend your business identity to him so much. He already knows... I assure you... He knows.
_______

EDIT:

Consider this approach...

"I want to help and learn as much as I can here. That way I'll have a better understanding of how my business can bring more clients into your studio".

Not out of line to capitalize on what's already there. He will retire one day. Smart monkeys find a good thing, make themselves invaluable, and end up taking it over later on... Just so a new tog can come in and develop a similar relationship with you. Your resources expand all along the way. You grow without growing. You influence without influencing. Let the river do the rowing my friend.

Edited by Photosopher - 24 March 2016 at 20:06
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeUptonWrites Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2016 at 21:04
I've been doing my own bookkeeping... eek. So I'll talk to a local guy I know who I used to work with when I was in the banking industry. I already have the separate bank accounts, but I'll definitely get started into the process of switching to an S-Corp. No need to pay Uncle Sam more than needed.

I'm loving the approach you gave. I think that will make it much easier for him (and me) to jive much better.

Again, and I think I speak for everyone on this thread, we'll be looking for your book on Amazon!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TheEmrys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2016 at 17:44
And Photosopher, if you ever want someone as an intern or trainee for a couple of weeks, I would kill (this is a bit of an overstatement. Well, maybe someone really, really bad) to learn from you.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeUptonWrites Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2016 at 20:04
UPDATE: I've done a couple of engagement shoots with him and I think our arrangement is going to be a win/win for us. I did not know how much I did not know until he starting throwing the information at me. It's going to be a great educational experience for me and he'll get some weekends off with the extra help.

Thank you all again for your advice!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Keith S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2016 at 21:06
Nice of you to come back to us on this.

Even those of us who couldn't offer advice were intrigued as to how you got on and what you finally decided to do.

Good to know all is good for you both and the best of luck for your future.
Keith. A77 Mkii, Sony 70-300G f4.5-5.6, Tamron 90mm 2.8 USD F004S.
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