FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Some simple feedback required...

Author
owenn01 View Drop Down
Alpha Eyes group
Alpha Eyes group

Joined: 20 May 2008
Country: United Kingdom
Location: Kent
Status: Offline
Posts: 10227
Post Options Post Options   Quote owenn01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Some simple feedback required...
    Posted: 13 August 2019 at 16:44
Hi everyone,

The following are some very early images from our recent Lake District vacation. All taken with an a99i and, most likely, a Sigma 24-70/2.8 EX DG HSM lens.

The question is fairly straightforward I hope - do you see white 'fringing' on the B&W (especially on the hill tops) and on the colour versions as well? I suspect I have overcooked the Clarity slider in LR but other views would be useful. That's about the only difference I have made in processing these compared to other files from other (non holiday) locations, so I'm assuming that's where the 'fault' (if there is one) lies?

Basic processing is performed in LR initially and a 'TIFF' file saved; this is then further refined (very minor adjustments and sharpening for end use - Sharpening is very, very slight in terms of settings applied) performed in PS Classic (CC version on-line). I've never been aware of this before and I am looking at these on my works monitor which is clearly not the one I do my work on, so perhaps this is where this is arising from.

Files for the forum are also stored on Flickr - I have sen that this can also introduce some artifact elements as well?

Feedback/suggestions/commiseration all thankfully received....









Thanks for the attention and best regards, Neil.
My Mantra: "Comment on other's work as you would wish to have yours commented upon". Go on - it's fun!
 



Back to Top
pegelli View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Dyxum Administrator

Joined: 02 June 2007
Country: Belgium
Location: Schilde
Status: Offline
Posts: 26781
Post Options Post Options   Quote pegelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2019 at 17:02
Neil, to answer your question, yes I can clearly see the white fringing. To see if it's caused by "overcooking" or just exxagerated by normal processing it might be useful to post "unprocessed" as comparison (if you still have those).

Btw, love the light in the first shot!

Edited by pegelli - 13 August 2019 at 17:28
Mind the bandwidth of others, don't link pictures larger then 1024 wide or 960 pix high, see here
Back to Top
owenn01 View Drop Down
Alpha Eyes group
Alpha Eyes group

Joined: 20 May 2008
Country: United Kingdom
Location: Kent
Status: Offline
Posts: 10227
Post Options Post Options   Quote owenn01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2019 at 20:00
Hi Peter,

This is exactly how the RAW file starts out:



The RAW files are quite 'thin' and do need some management to bring out the depth seen on the day - suspect I've overcooked it.... Still - that;s the beauty of RAW files!

Thanks and best regards, Neil.
My Mantra: "Comment on other's work as you would wish to have yours commented upon". Go on - it's fun!
Back to Top
bigsi View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 14 February 2010
Country: United Kingdom
Location: Cornwall
Status: Offline
Posts: 2241
Post Options Post Options   Quote bigsi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2019 at 20:16
Hi Neil, I'm seeing some fringing in the raw file too, especially where the ridge drops below the cloud on the left, I've found that flickr does tend to introduce artifacts so I'm not sure if this is from that or whether its on the original file.

Beautiful photos btw
You win or you learn, I seem to be doing a lot of learning....
Back to Top
pegelli View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Dyxum Administrator

Joined: 02 June 2007
Country: Belgium
Location: Schilde
Status: Offline
Posts: 26781
Post Options Post Options   Quote pegelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2019 at 20:23
Hi Neil, even in that unprocessed raw one I see a little white fringe and blowing it up (600%) confirms it:



It seems the sharpening (increase of acutance) of the edge is quite strong and as soon as that's happening my idea would be that any further "cooking" will just enhance it to the point you find it a bit disturbing.

So maybe the way to avoid it is dial down the (default) sharpening that's happening to the file early on in the process and in that way avoid exaggerating the fringe as you process the file further.

Hope this helps.
Mind the bandwidth of others, don't link pictures larger then 1024 wide or 960 pix high, see here
Back to Top
Snegren View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 11 November 2011
Country: Netherlands
Location: Zuid Holland
Status: Offline
Posts: 4247
Post Options Post Options   Quote Snegren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2019 at 21:01
Hi Neil. The RAW file is imported into Lightroom with default settings and may not be neutral. Then in the export to jpeg the file receives various treatments depending on setting (output sharpening, resizing, compression). In short, I don't think you can judge a RAW file from jpeg output.

I do know that from your 'neutral' jpeg to the 1st 2 images you posted is a big leap in contrast. Perhaps clarity is the wrong way to go, I don't like the clarity slider and don't use it. I use NIK Vivenza quite a lot, it allows dodging and burning in a very pleasant way, but also that can be used to overcook. But processing is a personal thing and what works for one does not necessarily work for everybody else (is that why there is so much software on the market?).

The proof of the pudding is in the eating Neil. Try to get the desired contrast without clarity perhaps?

Success,
Paul.

By the way, really like the 1st one!

Knowledge is a deadly friend, if no one sets the rules
The fate of all mankind I see, is in the hands of fools
 



Back to Top
owenn01 View Drop Down
Alpha Eyes group
Alpha Eyes group

Joined: 20 May 2008
Country: United Kingdom
Location: Kent
Status: Offline
Posts: 10227
Post Options Post Options   Quote owenn01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2019 at 21:26
Thanks, folks - I think this really helps me go back and rejudge what to do to get the most from these.

Rather irritatingly, the 'look' in the first B&W image is exactly what I was looking for for the final file so the fringing has rather 'upset the apple cart' in that respect. Paul - there are a few more like this to come once I master this issue!

Interestingly, I do not see this level of 'fringing', even on the final file, on my MacBook with Retina display - it seems to be further exaggerated once it get's out into the big bad world.

However, one other aspect that, perhaps, disturbs me more than this, and it's that I have recently had some major bouts of laser eye treatment ('Non-proliferative peripheral Diabetic retinopathy') and, whilst it has been very successful, I am currently more aware of small issues with my sight and, perhaps, I need to think more about what screen etc. I do this processing on so I can perhaps judge these types of effects more clearly.

Too much to think about perhaps but the advice has, indeed, been very useful and positive and thanks for all your advice and thoughts - it's what makes this such a special place.

Best regards, Neil.
My Mantra: "Comment on other's work as you would wish to have yours commented upon". Go on - it's fun!
Back to Top
Miranda F View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 11 January 2014
Country: United Kingdom
Location: Bristol
Status: Offline
Posts: 3348
Post Options Post Options   Quote Miranda F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2019 at 13:13
Not quite sure what's been done by you or by the various bits of software in the process, but if contrast and edge acutance / sharpness have both been increased then artefacts like those in Pegelli's image are quite likely to occur. Jpeg conversion also seem to add something. Have you tried dialling down the sharpness?
Miranda F & Sensorex, Sony A58, Nex-6, Dynax 4, 5, 60, 500si/600si/700si/800si, various Sony & Minolta lenses, several Tamrons, lots of MF primes and *far* too many old film cameras . . .
Back to Top
Atom Ant View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Assignments Graduate

Joined: 10 October 2013
Country: Singapore
Status: Offline
Posts: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Quote Atom Ant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2019 at 02:29
Neil, You asked for
      "Feedback/suggestions/commiseration all thankfully received...."
Sorry, but the best I can offer is commiserations...

I went through a mountain of grief with basically the same problem. I eventually concluded that a version upgrade had made my sharpening defaults problematic. (However I use DxO so I wouldn't expect that your problem is identical.) The infuriating thing was that it only became obvious towards the end of my workflow when some Nik Colour FX tools (microcontrast?) made it much, much worse.

In summary, commiserations & best of luck.
No need for formality - call me Tony! My Flickr Photostream
Back to Top
Jozioau View Drop Down
Alpha Eyes group
Alpha Eyes group

Joined: 13 May 2007
Country: Australia
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Posts: 4777
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jozioau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2019 at 02:42
Neil,
I really can't help as the PP software you use is all foreign to me. I've used Apple Aperture for decades, but with its pending demise when Mac OS Catalina updates next month, I've decided to freeze my old iMac in aspic running the present OS Mojave with all my Aperture libraries and vaults running off it. My new iMac will update to Catalina, and I've decided to simply use the native Apple Photos for post processing. That's plenty good enough for my minimalist approach to PP.
Anyway, one thing that the Apple PP programs do is preserve the unmodified original file regardless of what you subsequently do to it.
So if your original RAW files are still preserved, might an option be to start over again, this time being a little less aggressive with some of the tweaks?

Just a thought....
"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst" - Henri Cartier-Bresson
My FlickrPro site
Back to Top
stiuskr View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Joined: 01 September 2006
Country: United States
Location: West Virginia
Status: Offline
Posts: 11333
Post Options Post Options   Quote stiuskr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2019 at 04:52
Here's a good tutorial about getting rid of halos and fringing like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slkj-Xz4nHM&t=210s
Rob Suits Jr.
a99M2 a99 a77 a700 KM7D|Min24/2.8 Min35/2 So50/1.4 So50/2.8 Min85/1.4G Tam90/2.8 Tam180/3.5|Tam17-50 CZ24-70G2 KM28-75D So70-200G1 So70-300G So70-400G1| SonyF60 AD200R2
Back to Top
owenn01 View Drop Down
Alpha Eyes group
Alpha Eyes group

Joined: 20 May 2008
Country: United Kingdom
Location: Kent
Status: Offline
Posts: 10227
Post Options Post Options   Quote owenn01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2019 at 09:56
Thanks, Rob - there's a lot in there that I need to get my head around!

I think it does point to one definite thing though - I need to get some 'proper' PS skills in my life!!

I'm running through some revised images from LR and into PS with less aggressive settings applied and I think it's improving matters - will share at some point.

Thanks again to everyone that has contributed - very much appreciated.

Best regards, Neil.
My Mantra: "Comment on other's work as you would wish to have yours commented upon". Go on - it's fun!
Back to Top
onsplekkie View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 23 October 2011
Country: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Posts: 2047
Post Options Post Options   Quote onsplekkie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2019 at 11:56
Hi, I like your pictures!
If you plan to print them larger as 100cm poster you should worry about this 'problem' of fringe. If used digital or for smaller print, I think it is not a worry at all!
"take life as it is, not as you want it to be"
Back to Top
GlassEye View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 02 October 2011
Country: United States
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Posts: 1289
Post Options Post Options   Quote GlassEye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2019 at 02:38
Such nice shots! Here's my 0.02: -- The crest of the hill is very sharp naturally and seems to be highlighted by the ambient light. Your Clarity slider may have amplified this. I think it might be helpful to have an inexpensive print made. I'm not sure how large you anticipate displaying these, but you will get a better idea if there is a serious problem.
I would like to see your final images.
GlassEye      
I use only free range, organic pixels. Some pixels have been processed, but no pixels were injured in the creation of my images. All pixels are returned to the wild.
Back to Top
Dyxum main page >  Forum Home > Dyxum Photographs > Dyxum Critics Corner

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.031 seconds.

Monitor calibration strip

Dyxum.com - Home of the alpha system photographer

In memory of Cameron Hill - brettania

Feel free to contact us if needed.