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Sony a7r iii and Lightroom 5.7

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wetapunga View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wetapunga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sony a7r iii and Lightroom 5.7
    Posted: 19 June 2020 at 03:51
Hi all

I may be going to pull the trigger on a brand new a7R III. Which generates a slight conundrum. Because I've been using LR5.7 well for years and it does not support this camera.

I'm wondering what is a good workaround, based on my abhorrence of subscription models.

Does the Adobe DNG converter handle these Sony raw files well? Because a batch conversion to DNG then import doesn't seem like a bad idea conceptually?

TIA- B
a77ii- and some Sony/Minolta A-mount lenses.
a7riii- Zeiss Loxia 21mm, Loxia 35mm Loxia 50mm, Loxia 85mm, Voightlander 110mm Macro, Sony 24-105mm, Sigma 100-400mm.
 



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QuietOC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote QuietOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 04:51
DNG causes issues with private Sony metadata and may not store the optical black pixels from the ARW files.

I wouldn't put up with Adobe's software fragility. ARW files have used the same format (2.3) since the A77 in 2011. There should be minimal differences between A7RIII and A7RII ARW files other than the camera name.

Edited by QuietOC - 19 June 2020 at 04:54
Sony A7III NEX-5T HVL-F45RM LA-EA3 LA-EA4 MB-IV MC-11 EF-E II MD-NEX KR-NEX DA-NEX
Minolta Maxxum 600si
Pentax Q7 5-15 15-45/2.8 8.5/1.9 11.5/9 AF-P/Q
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wetapunga View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wetapunga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 06:09
Originally posted by QuietOC QuietOC wrote:

DNG causes issues with private Sony metadata and may not store the optical black pixels from the ARW files.

I wouldn't put up with Adobe's software fragility. ARW files have used the same format (2.3) since the A77 in 2011. There should be minimal differences between A7RIII and A7RII ARW files other than the camera name.


Ah, that's not optimal if it doesn't handle the blacks.

I'm actually pondering going back to Silkypix
a77ii- and some Sony/Minolta A-mount lenses.
a7riii- Zeiss Loxia 21mm, Loxia 35mm Loxia 50mm, Loxia 85mm, Voightlander 110mm Macro, Sony 24-105mm, Sigma 100-400mm.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 07:14
Lightroom 5.7 is old by now.

I use RAWTherapee for my RAW needs. It is free and fine for my needs. I have limited post processing skills, so..... YMMV, but you can try is as it is free
There are other free RAW converters around.

A lot of people like their Capture One it seems, you can get that one as a pay once license.
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pegelli View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pegelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 08:01
You can try to find a 6.14 version with key, that's the last version with a perpetual license and supports the A7iii. And why not try the DNG route and see if there are problems with your files. Just archive the ARW's for later processing in case you would need it. I used that strategy for ~2 years when LR3 didn't support my NEX6 and never noticed any perceptible difference or problem with the blacks. I still have all the ARW's from that time on a hard disk "just in case", but never had to go back to them (yet).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote nandbytes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 09:18
DNG route somewhat sucks as mentioned above it doesn't provide all the metadata. Then it also doesn't provide you with the camera based profiles. Some people may like to start from the washed out Adobe LR defaults and boost your contrasts and saturation endlessly but personally I like to start from camera's base standard settings which is what I would have initially seen through the EVF.

I recently sold my LR6 key (upgraded to A7RIV), so you just need to find someone willing to sell you it. There is a form online for transferring licenses from one person to another and just use that to make the transfer. Finding the binaries may be tricky but I can help you with that if needed
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wetapunga View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wetapunga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 10:00
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Lightroom 5.7 is old by now.

I use RAWTherapee for my RAW needs. It is free and fine for my needs. I have limited post processing skills, so..... YMMV, but you can try is as it is free
There are other free RAW converters around.

A lot of people like their Capture One it seems, you can get that one as a pay once license.


Indeed, LR 5.7 is old but itís been economical. Iíve gone years without paying any subscriptions or upgrading.

Thanks for the tips on Capture One and RAWTherapee 🙂

a77ii- and some Sony/Minolta A-mount lenses.
a7riii- Zeiss Loxia 21mm, Loxia 35mm Loxia 50mm, Loxia 85mm, Voightlander 110mm Macro, Sony 24-105mm, Sigma 100-400mm.
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pegelli View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pegelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 11:58
What metadata is actually missing when converting to DNG? I just looked in PIE (Picture Information Extractor) and in the many hundreds of data this program reads from the EXIF and Metadata I couldn't find any differences, but I didn't look at every individual field. However all important stuff was there in both cases.

Also in LR all the camera profiles available for the ARW were also showing up for the DNG, so I don't understand what the problem is there. Also the unedited files (ARW and DNG) using the standard Adobe profile looked identical.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dCap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 14:18
yep, as per @pegelli - I'd look at what metadeta you'd lose and decide if it is important.

question - what does this mean: "may not store the optical black pixels" ?

The DNG editor has quite a few options - would be great if someone has lots of experience with this and can chime in.

(SIDE-BAR) I've had three web design programs go out of business or just shutdown since 1999. And in each case I had fairly large projects tied up and then borked to some degree. I now use an bare bones html editor and could just use a plain text editor. I could even switch from PC to Mac if I wanted to. I'll never go back to a tied-in solution.

(RELATED) I've taken the same option for my images now. I've still got my old LR catalog and edits on a fully paid version of LR on an old desktop (and the library files backed-up). But have now stopped using a catalog - they are great but did adobe mention they were going to charge rent when I bought LR 1? I don't think so.

It may take a change in work flow and I totally understand the ease and goodness of a raw library. And I would hope the Adobe/LR competitors can see the rent model as not something to copy.

That said I would have happily paid Adobe $10 each time I bought a new camera to buy the RAW support. They'd get $100s from me today if they did that - let me have LR 4 and let me pay $10 ONCE per camera to buy the raw support. Not $10/month.
Sony RX100 IV Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 1,8-2,8/8,8-25,7 [ 24-70mm ]
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Post Options Post Options   Quote QuietOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 14:33
Originally posted by pegelli pegelli wrote:

What metadata is actually missing when converting to DNG?

I heard that DNG does store the private metadata (Sony specific), but exif tools can no longer find it. The standard defined EXIF metadata is not the problem.

The lens corrections Sony embeds in ARW 2.3 files may be examples of private metadata.

Originally posted by dCap dCap wrote:

question - what does this mean: "may not store the optical black pixels" ?

There are masked off pixels at the edges of sensors that are included in raw captures. They can be used to establish the level of the blackest black. I will see if I can find the discussion with some examples. Here is a recent discussion without examples

Edited by QuietOC - 19 June 2020 at 14:59
Sony A7III NEX-5T HVL-F45RM LA-EA3 LA-EA4 MB-IV MC-11 EF-E II MD-NEX KR-NEX DA-NEX
Minolta Maxxum 600si
Pentax Q7 5-15 15-45/2.8 8.5/1.9 11.5/9 AF-P/Q
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pegelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 15:10
Originally posted by QuietOC QuietOC wrote:


The lens corrections Sony embeds in ARW 2.3 files may be examples of private metadata.
If I look in PIE the lens distortion parameters parameters show up in exactly the same place, irrespective if it's ARW or DNG.

So I don't think it's a real problem

Just tested an ARW and DNG of the same photo both at identical default settings in lightroom (with all corrections on). Photo is taken with a lens with built in correction profiles (distortion/vignetting)

Exported both at full resolution into photoshop and copied one on top of the other as a layer and went to the "difference" blending mode and got a complete black photo, indicating they're both identical. So we can assume the same camera and lens profiles are applied to both files.

Don't know how to test the theory of the "optical black pixels" being stored or not, and I also don't know how much of a problem this is in practical use.
Mind the bandwidth of others, don't link pictures larger then 1024 wide or 960 pix high, see here
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dCap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 15:21
intesting stuff @QuietOC - thanks for the link

I'm lucky that I personally only want to keep very few images now, perhaps about 10,000. Not sure on the actual volume, but I'm being hard on my archive and about to limit it to say 500 frames per year (2005-2020 digital). I am thinking of keeping:
- RAW
- DNG (not sure which option, but NOT the one with RAW inside)
- TIFF (untouched 'sooc' export, surely everything can read a TIFF?!)
- TIFF (edited)
be strict with file naming/locations to keep my three raws (RAW/DNG/TIFF) safe.

Then jpgs for the internets could be made to measure from the edited TIFF. They would also be disposable since they can easily be recreated from the final TIFF. I say this as my 2008 flickr feed is made up of 600x400 pixel images and well, times have moved on as have the accepted screen photo size!!

Need to do some trial RAW > DNG conversions on old KM7D files and newest GX9 or RX100 files ... and have a play with free CaptureOne and the Affinity Photo trial (looks to be the one I'll like).
Sony RX100 IV Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 1,8-2,8/8,8-25,7 [ 24-70mm ]
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dCap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 15:25
Originally posted by pegelli pegelli wrote:


Exported both at full resolution into photoshop and copied one on top of the other as a layer and went to the "difference" blending mode and got a complete black photo, indicating they're both identical. So we can assume the same camera and lens profiles are applied to both files.


Wondering if using the adobe stand-alone DNG converter would yield the same results ... removing the 'is LR actually doing something special' with the raw file? Especially with regard to distortion.

Althought I 'think' the DNG convesion tool is actually effectively embeded inside LR and that Adobe just make the tool availble outside of LR out-of-the-goodness-of-their-hearts!?
Sony RX100 IV Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 1,8-2,8/8,8-25,7 [ 24-70mm ]
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dCap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 15:30
I'm totally dumb to the idea that LR does lens distortion conversions - I've heard of it - is is something new? Certain version of LR. I thought that was the job of the RAW in camera writing process (perhaps that is different for different makes/models of camera?).

I was reading this thinking, as long as it gives me this lot:
ISO, Av, Tv, K (guessed from auto white balance), and "28mm"
what other data do you need?

Then I do remember people talking about uncorrected profiles vs correct in the occasional lens review I've looked at. So, must be a LR toggle?
Sony RX100 IV Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 1,8-2,8/8,8-25,7 [ 24-70mm ]
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