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Sony to get rid of mirror for new cameras!

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BackToSlr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote BackToSlr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sony to get rid of mirror for new cameras!
    Posted: 05 February 2010 at 00:11
Hi all,

I have always thought that if we could implement phase detection integrated on the image sensor chip using micro pupils and sub phase detectors we can get rid of the mirror. So i thought that seems to be reasonably patentable invention. So i started researching how can i go about building a prototype. (My only loss was a couple of days to write the damned thing down last January, but like an idiot i did not file it :( )

Today i found Sony has filed a patent for similar invention! Well Kudos to Sony, saved my $$$ filing fee!

Sony patent for integrated phase detection

Cheers,

N

Edited by BackToSlr - 05 February 2010 at 00:30
Sony + Minolta + NEX stuff...
 



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pdeley View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pdeley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 00:49
Cool! I don't understand a word of it (the patent text I mean) but Fig 1 and 2 are clearly the outlines of the trusty good old a100. So I wouldn't bet on it coming out very soon, filing the patent doesn't necessarily mean they're also starting up the actual production lines.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dca1213 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 01:08
I have to admit, I'm a photographer and this is way over my head...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote LetoAtreidesII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 01:22
Originally posted by dca1213 dca1213 wrote:

I have to admit, I'm a photographer and this is way over my head...

The end result is using the main sensor to do phase detect AF instead of a separate AF module. So we can have EVIL but keep using fast phase detect AF instead of contrast detect AF.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dca1213 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 01:32
Originally posted by LetoAtreidesII LetoAtreidesII wrote:

Originally posted by dca1213 dca1213 wrote:

I have to admit, I'm a photographer and this is way over my head...

The end result is using the main sensor to do phase detect AF instead of a separate AF module. So we can have EVIL but keep using fast phase detect AF instead of contrast detect AF.


Problem is, I don't have any interest in EVIL, call me old or "old school" but I prefer an optical through the lens viewfinder. I love pentaprisim or pentamirror viewfinders and find them far superior to electronic viewfinders. In addition, I wonder about wear and tear on the shutter from this type of system, not to mention potential shutter lag. It seems that the drive to make DSLR's more like point and shoot cameras is in the end counter productive. Once again manufacturers telling us what we need, or want, rather than listening to what photographers value. For instance, what still photographer needs HD video?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mpb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 01:36
@backToSlr. I was just thinking the same thing.

They have not got rid of the mirror yet so you can still jump in with that patent.

Edited by mpb - 05 February 2010 at 01:37
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote godsakes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 02:13
at the risk of sounding like an idiot

is this patent going to be implemented in a mirrorless evil or as an alternative implementation for live view (without a secondary sensor) in a mirror system?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote wolfy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 02:21
Seems to me a system like that could be implemented in both SLR and EVIL cameras. Now which one will Sony throw it into, thats a good question...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sondermann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 02:27
Originally posted by godsakes godsakes wrote:

at the risk of sounding like an idiot

is this patent going to be implemented in a mirrorless evil or as an alternative implementation for live view (without a secondary sensor) in a mirror system?



Interesting question. I seem to remember a usually well-informed member suggesting that the A700 successor will have LV and a pentaprism at the same time, and he didn't seem to refer to manual focus LV.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pnaciona Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 03:05
I must have missed something somewhere but I don't see the addition of phase-detection AF to mean the disappearance of contrast-detection AF and SLR mirrors... Maybe I'm just really thick.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sondermann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 03:14
Originally posted by pnaciona pnaciona wrote:

I must have missed something somewhere but I don't see the addition of phase-detection AF to mean the disappearance of contrast-detection AF and SLR mirrors... Maybe I'm just really thick.


Please accept my apologies in case I'm wrong on that, but you seem to mix up phase detection AF and contrast detection AF. Phase detection AF is the AF we currently have on SLRs. Achieving PD AF on the main sensor allows for ditching the mirror (though, in order to allow for an optical viewfinder, one might keep the mirror and offer sensor-based PDAF as an alternative) and for using the current lenses even on an EVIL camera, with no need to develop special lenses designed for contrast detection AF.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pnaciona Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 04:33
Oops, I stand corrected but my point remains. :)

Edited by pnaciona - 05 February 2010 at 04:34
Some call me Perry, Peri, or Pericles. You can call me Jack. You don't know me.
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Davey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Davey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 04:45
Who said anything about ditching the mirror?

Originally posted by Sondermann Sondermann wrote:

Achieving PD AF on the main sensor allows for ditching the mirror...
   

Edited by Davey - 05 February 2010 at 05:04
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarkSangenito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2010 at 05:54
Its dated Sep. 10th 2009, and the a500/550/450 came out right around then. It might be related to that.

I am reading that sony will be adding an extra pixel site, in addition to the RGB ones, which will be used for AF only. These AF pixels will be dispersed around the sensor, and have 2 films with light slits stacked on top of each other, there is also a second AF pixel right beside it, and each one reads light at a different angle, coming from a micro lens covering them both up. (look at page 6 of the PDF) I guess this gives a steroscopic effect and since there is distance between the two pixels which is then measurements taken to figure out distance.

So...each "pixel" has 2 AF pixels that give measurements of light from a micro lens through two different plates with slits in them, and there are bunch of those AF sites across the sensor that then talk to each other. When the circle of confusion is at its smallest point (most focused image) it locks focus.

They talk about the fact that large apertures have very very narrow depth of field and I guess its one of the big reasons contrast detect fails to focus properly, but with the 2 sensor plates having little slits/pupils the light can still be effectively measured to AF properly, and apparently these pupils can be adjusted either for aperture reasons or available light reasons.



Anyway, I think thats the jist of it. Basically its contrast detect in name only, it seems to be phase detect on a micro level, but embedded into the sensor itself.

Wikipedia phase detect and how it works, and then apply those principles to the diagram on page 6 of the patent, and all the discussion of 2 slits and AF sensors.





Edited by MarkSangenito - 05 February 2010 at 05:56
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