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Sony's EVIL GUI revealed (a bit) in CP+

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roweraay View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote roweraay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2010 at 22:47
Originally posted by CTYankee CTYankee wrote:

Maybe Panasonic was never the company people love to hate like Sony is.    


Bulls-eye !
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PhotoTraveler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 02:07
Spot on.

I don't expect it to be much, it's will be largely a model that gets the ball rolling, in many ways a production prototype. Not really any different than what Oly/Panny did, launch and quickly replace. But it gets things moving.

I still may buy one, but really it will be about waiting to see how they pan out. But to tie in with your post about e-mount and dyxum. Since all these new EVILs from every brand are a new mount. There is no reason to think if you use Alphas, you will go to Sony EVILs verses a MFT, or NX EVIL, or eventual Canon and Nikon evils. It's a do over no matter what.   

I want all the players to get models going, so we can see the paths they are taking. And if cheap enough, a simple base model would be a purchase just like P&S, the brand doesn't matter, buy what works for now, re-group later.

Sony looks to be supporting A mount for a while, so no reason to switch so quick. Just wait for everyone to do there thing, and then maybe it's time to even jump brands.

I think Sony will be quicker than others to bring a high end model. But a lot of that is because I don't think Sony will ever bring a Pro Body A mount Body (or what they might bring is a half baked model). Going back a few years now, I've thrown out there the idea that Sony will skip the Pro DSLR (D# /1D/1Ds ) business model and jump strait to an EVIL for it. They are in the best position to do this, and will give them a better opportunity in that market space.

What I want to see is the plans/philosophy of each brand on how they approach EVIL bodies. Things like what path they lay down for sensor sizes, aspect ratios, how Stabilization is done, do they bring new flash systems, will they use it as the transition to switch to things like DNG. Will they have GPS support as part of the standard architecture. What is their idea of ergonomics on this new camera line. Will they be a full line of models. That needs to be laid down, and we can go from there. I'm sure at least one will break from the norm on sensors. I think each big player might make a surprise change to something.

But lets say I buy an early Sony evil with basic zoom. It will be just to have a small camera, doesn't mean I commit to that mount. While the first models should be cameras that effectively replace 200/300/400 series stuff. Sony will need to send a message on where things are going. If the product looks to lame/cheesy and doesn't have high end models soon after, they might shoot themselves in the foot before the start.

I really hope we see them do things like switch to DNG, make GPS support standard, and a bunch of other such things. If the feature set and design reads like an A380 with the mirror system removed, it's going to be an un-inspiring move.

Originally posted by Kiklop Kiklop wrote:

Originally posted by roweraay roweraay wrote:


I personally would wait a couple of months more and see what the other manufacturers will come out with.....including Sony's own take on EVIL.   
And that's a tricky thing with "new things"; we can expect these cameras to evolve fast.
In fact, and unlike most here, i don't think that what we shall see in the next few days from Sony is what many here do hope for. There is another, "high end" EVIL camera that should be provided later. Of course, we can expect other brands to move forward as well and then the question is at what point one should spend the money :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ABramley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 02:44
Originally posted by PhotoTraveler PhotoTraveler wrote:

Since all these new EVILs from every brand are a new mount. There is no reason to think if you use Alphas, you will go to Sony EVILs verses a MFT, or NX EVIL, or eventual Canon and Nikon evils. It's a do over no matter what.   


Disagree. Although the facts aren't there yet, the new mount could well follow m4/3 the trend of being identical to its larger brother apart from reduced registration distance. Micro 4/3 goes to 4/3 with full control via an adaptor, and although the offical NX -> K-mount adaptor is dumb at the moment there's hopes for something more featured soon.

Stands to reason that an adaptor should give Sony EVIL users a decent level of automation in their Alpha lenses - hopefully at least aperture and AF with SSM/SAM lenses. This makes Sony evils instantly more attractive to those with a collection of suitable A-mount lenses than other mounts. The pre-announcement of an alpha mount 35mm video camera should give some indication as to mount standardisation. If this turns out not to be the case then I'll be very disappointed.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CTYankee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 03:23
Originally posted by Sick Sick wrote:

Originally posted by CTYankee CTYankee wrote:

Maybe because the GF1 is a photographers camera while Sony NEX appears to be a family vacation camera ?


Keep in mind that Panasonic is almost completely about m4/3s.
They have to strech their system to upper level as best as they can.
Their 4/3s system is not off the quality Olympus ones is.
And for sure not Alpha A450-A900 levels.


That's just it ... Panasonic is digicams and micro 4/3, but somehow, they're managing to get a reputation with photographers as making some of the best products on the market (LX3 was widely regarded as the best digicam until Canon answered with the S90). And I don't believe their 4/3 system is in any way inferior to Oly's. The other way around, I'd say. Oly has the superior jpeg engine, but combine that with the art filters, the generally inferior lenses, and the lack of a G1-style offering and Oly is the one putting out the consumer-oriented gear. Panasonic, meanwhile, has a background in video (same as Sony), has teamed up with Leica (Sony:Zeiss) and has the superior m43 lenses as well as the m43 system with reasonable AF speed.

Now the systems are limited; they'll appeal to only so many people, and those people will only buy so many lenses. But I think Panasonic is building a very good name for themselves with photographers. Sony struggles, but I wonder if Sony can simply do no right because few people want to like Sony

BTW, regarding the impact of EVIL in the marketplace, Thom Hogan (bythom.com) had a nice chart that he presented to Nikon recently showing a general trend in camera sales that shows cell phones, fixed lens digicams, 'EVIL' systems, and DSLRs. As time goes on, he shows DSLR sales shrinking, squeezed by EVIL; EVIL growing; digicams shrinking, squeezed by both EVIL and cell phones, and cell phones growing. (No numbers, no years, just a trend, and no class of camera being obsoleted or anything so drastic).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CTYankee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 03:44
Originally posted by ABramley ABramley wrote:

Originally posted by PhotoTraveler PhotoTraveler wrote:

There is no reason to think if you use Alphas, you will go to Sony EVILs verses a MFT, or NX EVIL, or eventual Canon and Nikon evils. It's a do over no matter what.   

Disagree. Although the facts aren't there yet, the new mount could well follow m4/3 the trend of being identical to its larger brother apart from reduced registration distance. Micro 4/3 goes to 4/3 with full control via an adaptor, and although the offical NX -> K-mount adaptor is dumb at the moment there's hopes for something more featured soon.

I hang out on the micro 4/3 forum on dpreview as I'm interested in these cameras. I don't see a lot of people using 4/3 lenses on them. If anything, I see a lot more people adapting compact manual focus lenses. Partly because they already have them, but some are going out and buying them because there are few interesting m43 lenses available.

43 lenses on m43 is a fairly lousy option. Most 43 lenses are actually quite large. The 50/2 macro is quite a big lens, bigger than a Minolta 50/1.4. AF on the EP1 is dog slow ... slower than anything I've ever tried. It gets 'close' on focus in a sluggish, but tolerable amount of time, then you can sit there watching it hunt back & forth to fine tune focus. You can easily focus manually faster. That was with a camera adjusted by an Oly rep for demo purposes. And forget AF with the Panasonics. They don't do it. Meanwhile, Sony would probabably AF with SSM at best which limits you to a few huge lenses plus a couple SAM lenses. And aperture control is still a question mark. You can still communicate some info which is better than nothing.

The bigger question is, how many people want to use DSLR lenses on EVIL cameras ? Few are interested in adapting much on a compact EP1/GF1/NEX style because compactness is part of the equation. (I can see users of bigger G1 style cameras more interested in a wider range of lenses and rumors suggest a Sony option here). Most are interested in adapting lenses because there are no native options. If SOny puts out a 16/2.8 pancake, 28 & 50+mm lenses would be desirable. (As 40-60mm lenses are frequently adapted to m43 for portrait use). I could see maybe a Tamron 17-50/2.8 since it isn't too big. The m43 adapter for Sony lenses adds about an inch to the length of the lens. (Meanwhile a Leica M adapter adds only 8mm, so the compact, fairly affordable Voigtlander Nokton 40/1.4 is an extremely popular alternative to the Panny 45/2.8 macro).

When I weight the pros & cons, the NEX system will have a slight edge for any compatibility with Alpha, but really only for the 50/1.4. Meanwhile, it will lose out if the only prime is 16/2.8 and pros & cons will go either way for various other features.

I think that (particularly if the system offers IBIS - a question mark), it's likely to be a success. It's going to be geared toward young consumers, but capable for enthusiasts; it will have an APS-C sensor that beats 4/3 and the disappointing Samsung; I'll bet it will have AF that's no worse than the GF1 and maybe better. It will have class-leading video. And at least in the US, Sony will manage to get it in front of consumers before most get to see micro 4/3. Letdowns for the enthusiast will be the iPod generation interface and maybe the lenses. I can see people going with m43 solely for the Panasonic 20/1.7.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote peterottaway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 04:03
For those wondering about the A mount I did notice that when Sony announced its 35 mm video camera it had an A mount lens mount.

Admittedly in someways the E mount would be the way to go as it is fully electronic, but is really for an APS-C sized sensor.
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Timbits20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 04:59
I find it interesting that people are comparing Sony to Panasonic here.

My 2 cents: Panasonic came in as a humongous electronics company that worked its way into enthusiast photography. They came in with a clean slate and did the fundamentals right all along. Sony came in as an even more humongous electronics company that did the same thing for the most part - but because it's done so after having bought into and leveraging A-mount (which enthusiasts have a history with) the odds of Sony doing something that they will find annoying goes up. No one talks about Panasonic's legacy and waxes sentimental about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote roweraay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 05:05
Originally posted by CTYankee CTYankee wrote:

The bigger question is, how many people want to use DSLR lenses on EVIL cameras ? Few are interested in adapting much on a compact EP1/GF1/NEX style because compactness is part of the equation.


Bulls-eye again. Why would one buy such a compact camera system, whose whole point is the compactness (in both the Body AND in the lenses) possible by eliminating the dSLR mirror-box and then put bulky/kludgy dSLR lenses on them ? I personally would not. I will buy one of these cameras to supplement my A900 but will not even bother to buy an adapter, even if it were offered. I will certainly buy lenses that are specific to the format, however.

Letdowns for the enthusiast will be the iPod generation interface and maybe the lenses. I can see people going with m43 solely for the Panasonic 20/1.7.


iPOD generation interfaces were always present in the consumer-grade stuff that Sony sells (and sold in the past).....par for the course. However, the pro and semi-pro stuff that Sony sells are pretty much top-notch. Their prior offerings like the DSC-V3, DSC-F828, DSC-R1 etc come to mind, when their much maligned "Cybershot" division set out to develop products for enthusiasts.   

Zeiss and Sony have already made oblique hints on lenses from the Zeiss stable, for the new Sony EVIL mount. I would not have even an iota of doubt in my mind, that the performance of those lenses would be class-leading and worthy of being present in the armoury of the most discerning of enthusiasts.

The leaf-shutter equipped 14.3-71.5mm f/2.8-4.8 Vario-Sonnar Zeiss lens in the 1.67x DSC-R1 (sensor was larger than 4/3 of course) was just superb. And being a leaf-shuttered lens, the camera could flash x-sync at all shutter speeds and were not restricted to 1/160 sec etc., like with the m-4/3 products.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PhotoTraveler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 05:11
to echo CTYankee, while some folks will adapt lenses it would only be a short term solution.

Even with Sony offering an adapter that gives full automation, I doubt I would use an adapter. Or if I did, it would be for a very short period of time, or just on a big tele (where a native lens won't be smaller anyways).

Adapting lenses will always be a tiny fraction of a userbase, thus insignificant. Going back to 4/3rds. It's was a very adaptable mount, and Oly had an OM to 4/3rds adapter. But not many folks used it. Same for canon even, plenty of adapters, but not many folks use it.   DSLR lenses on a EVIL defeats the purpose.

while my 16-80 would have a nice range and fairly small size for an EVIL, it would still be a silly thing to buy an EVIL and use my DSLR lenses on it (except for the above mentioned Tele aspect of things). Better off to not buy into an EVIL, save up cash, let more models come out, and then be able to buy a full system at once. No reason to constrain yourself when you don't need to.   No different than it would be silly to buy into A mount on the basis you had a couple old Minolta lenses from your old film body, or you inherited. Buy on what works for you, your 20 year old kit lens and one prime should not be a driver.

Sony needs to offer an adapter. But in no way will such things driver a lot of users, especially when it looks like the first models target P&S up-graders.

Also keep in mind, there is a high chance of 3rd party smart adapters. 3rd party lens maker might go for it, but a 3rd party company might hit the scene and make smart adapters that handle enough protocol to allow a lot of adapting of different brand body and lenses. Then lens lock in gets completely blown out of the water.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PhotoTraveler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 05:20
And that's where it will get interesting and where Sony will try to one up Nikon and Canon. The first cameras/lenses might be nothing super special. But if they come out with a line of high end Zeiss stuff for those bodies, and bring Pro build bodies. And thus give themselves a 21st century Leica M analog, they will have a setup that will sell like hotcakes.

FF or near FF EVIL body, compact, but with great build, great grip(s) and everything you expect in a Nikon/Canon Pro body, but in a compact size with some SSM Zeiss primes (maybe leaf shutters), some super high end zooms , and yet at a good price (same price points as current Sony stuff) they will have the camera everyone wants.

I don't think enough people are seeing the high end aspect to where Sony might/will go.   And it's a problem for C or N, because they won't want to fracture their base with 2 systems in that segment. So Sony can leverage there.

It won't be lens compatibility through adapters that keeps people, but the potential for a system that the others don't offer, at least for a few years.


Originally posted by roweraay roweraay wrote:



Zeiss and Sony have already made oblique hints on lenses from the Zeiss stable, for the new Sony EVIL mount. I would not have even an iota of doubt in my mind, that the performance of those lenses would be class-leading and worthy of being present in the armoury of the most discerning of enthusiasts.

The leaf-shutter equipped 14.3-71.5mm f/2.8-4.8 Vario-Sonnar Zeiss lens in the 1.67x DSC-R1 (sensor was larger than 4/3 of course) was just superb. And being a leaf-shuttered lens, the camera could flash x-sync at all shutter speeds and were not restricted to 1/160 sec etc., like with the m-4/3 products.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CTYankee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 05:41
Originally posted by roweraay roweraay wrote:

Zeiss and Sony have already made oblique hints on lenses from the Zeiss stable, for the new Sony EVIL mount. I would not have even an iota of doubt in my mind, that the performance of those lenses would be class-leading and worthy of being present in the armoury of the most discerning of enthusiasts.


I do imagine that Sony will only be releasing excellent glass. (I'm happier with Sony's recent Alpha lenses - CZ or not - than most stuff prior). But I'll note that Sony has used Zeiss in the past on digicam lenses and Panasonic licenses Leica, so I don't think that CZ & consumer-oriented are necessarily contradictory.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cokin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 06:47
Sounds like Sony will release the new Evil before world cup(June11~July11).

https://fanphotographer.sony.eu/

Win an incredible trip to the 2010 FIFA World Cup™ FinalsWant to be an official, pitch-side photographer at the greatest sporting event in the world? To celebrate the launch of the revolutionary new ultra-compact α digital camera from Sony, we’re giving you the chance to win tickets to a match at this year’s FIFA World Cup Finals in South Africa.Teaming up the “anytime, anywhere” convenience of an ultra-compact camera with the superb picture quality and interchangeable lenses of a Digital SLR, this is the perfect camera for the World Cup. So if you want the chance to take pictures alongside the professionals, send us three of your best pictures on the theme of “street scenes”.

https://fanphotographer.sony.eu/



Edited by cokin - 15 April 2010 at 06:55
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cokin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 15:02
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hoge-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2010 at 15:05
That prize should be used to advertise Sony's flagship, or at least A7xx. For the EVIL it seems kinda out of place... you got the final ticket, sit at the upper stage, and what you got in your pocket is 16mm f2.8 pancake

Edited by hoge-fan - 15 April 2010 at 15:06
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