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STF mode in Maxxum 7 recreated for DSLR's

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dd001 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dd001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 09:53
Nice experiment, thanks a lot for sharing
David - My Gallery
 



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matthiaspaul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote matthiaspaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 12:12
The Minolta Dynax 7 STF mode is based on an automatic multi-exposure of 7 shots with a constant exposure of 1/7th each, shifting both, aperture and speed at the same time.

The Minolta patents describing the background of this feature can be found in this thread:

http://www.mi-fo.de/forum/index.php?showtopic=22619 [de]

Since the DSLRs don't support multi-exposures, unfortunately, I would try to shot 7 exposures with constant (correct) exposure, shifting aperture and speed, and then combine them in postprocessing with a weight of 1/7th each, or shot with 1/7th and add the values of all 7 shots in postprocessing.

Greetings,

Matthias
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Minolta-Forum (MiFo) - German forum for the Minolta, Konica, Konica Minolta and Sony world of photography: http://www.mi-fo.de
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TallPaul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TallPaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 12:57
Actually DSLR's can do multiple exposures, its just ours that can't! I forget which bodies have it, but some definitely do, possibly the Fujifilm S5 or a Nikon body from memory.

Can't see why they can't do it in-camera with enough processing, would expect A850/900 to have the horsepower.

I must confess I have never tried the STF mode on my 7, but, you can guess what I will be doing later
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarkSangenito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 14:34
Actually DSLR's can do multiple exposures, its just ours that can't! I forget which bodies have it, but some definitely do, possibly the Fujifilm S5 or a Nikon body from memory.


count the canon 7d in there too, but I dont think that was intentional, haha.

Really well done photoman, seems to work well, and a pretty ingenious process.   
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photoman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote photoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 14:36
Originally posted by mhohner mhohner wrote:

Also note that with some lenses the focus shifts when stopping down. So the individual frames will not only have different bokeh and DOF, but also a different plane of focus. That's another advantage of a true STF lens.


Upon close inspection of the individual images from the 50mm, I didnt notice any real shift in focus between the different images. The focus may shift on other lenses, but I don't know.

The sharpness of the in-focus parts of the final composite seem to be on par with that of the image shot at f/3.5. Of the individual images, the one shot at f/3.5 is definitely the sharpest.
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photoman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote photoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 14:41
Also, feel free to share your results. I am interested to see how it works on the many different lenses of Sony/Minolta. Especially the high end large aperture lenses that I cannot afford to test myself.
 



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kefkafloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kefkafloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 16:27
Originally posted by MarkSangenito MarkSangenito wrote:

Actually DSLR's can do multiple exposures, its just ours that can't! I forget which bodies have it, but some definitely do, possibly the Fujifilm S5 or a Nikon body from memory.


count the canon 7d in there too, but I dont think that was intentional, haha.

Really well done photoman, seems to work well, and a pretty ingenious process.   


The a500/550's auto HDR mode is multiple exposure.
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wallyb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wallyb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 16:35
Originally posted by kefkafloyd kefkafloyd wrote:

Originally posted by MarkSangenito MarkSangenito wrote:

Actually DSLR's can do multiple exposures, its just ours that can't! I forget which bodies have it, but some definitely do, possibly the Fujifilm S5 or a Nikon body from memory.


count the canon 7d in there too, but I dont think that was intentional, haha.

Really well done photoman, seems to work well, and a pretty ingenious process.   


The a500/550's auto HDR mode is multiple exposure.
They mean multiple exposures on the same frame, not multiple consecutive exposures.
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skm.sa100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote skm.sa100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 16:50
It was much simpler in the film days. Just don't move to the next and you'll get as many multiple exposures as you want. Especially where manual forwarding was required.
In DSLRs, the captured picture is written out to the card.
How will the camera know which image is to be superimposed on? Maybe the latest image? The user will probably have select a picture and tell the camera that multiple exposure is needed for that picture. The camera will end up taking a second picture and blend them together.
This is exactly what we do in an editor which supports layers. Maybe it's computationally expensive and hence isn't that widely supported.
Surely this is one of the most frequently requested features. There's gotta be a good explanation why it isn't supported widely.
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beline View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote beline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 16:56
Do you know what the irony is here?

The CHDK firmware project. They have had multi exposure HDR for some time now, and they could implement this STF mode in a heartbeat. And they very-well MAY if they get wind of it.

And you know why thats ironic? Because a rebel project, unfunded, contributed to by janitors and web designers will implement a feature on a camera before Sony ever considers it. Or considers considering it...

Lame...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TallPaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 16:57
If my Minolta XD7 can do multi exposures and came from eBay for less than a Sony strap, you would have thought an A900 could

Sure you can do it on computer, but the camera is a tool, and I have lots of tools that do the same job, but sometimes I prefer to use a certain type of tool to another, its nice to have an option.
A900, 16-35/2.8Z, 70-200/2.8G, 85/1.4Z, 28-75/2.8, 50/1.7. Nex 6, 16-50mm & Rokkor MC/MD lenses.
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beline View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote beline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 17:01
Oh, and in regards to implementation, You would have the camera take the shots, automatically varying the settings, buffering the frames and running a quick algorithm to calculate the final frame.

The process would actually smooth out random noise, and I would be happy if it was limited to JPG mode. However, limiting it to JPG wouldn't make sense, as doing the math on the compression algorithm would actually entail more overhead.

I don't know, just my 10cents.
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Gabriel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gabriel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 17:01
Originally posted by skm.sa100 skm.sa100 wrote:

It was much simpler in the film days.

On my side, I find it easier in a DSLR. In the digital cameras featuring multi-exposure (I'm using a k20d myself, but several other ones also provide this feature), you can choose to either do an additive multi-exposure (in the same way as on film) or an averaging multi-exposure. While both modes have different uses, the possibility to let the camera handle the averaging itself ease the process.
If you want to combine 7 exposures (as an example), you can simply take 7 consecutive correctly exposed pictures. In the film days, you had to take 7 consecutive pictures exposed to 1/7th of a correct exposure. Of course you could do it, but automation doesn't hurt here.
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skm.sa100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote skm.sa100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 17:05
Originally posted by photoman photoman wrote:

Originally posted by skm.sa100 skm.sa100 wrote:

By 1/7th exposure, do you mean to say that you set the opacity to 1/7th and used overlay mode?


I just tried what you suggested and it gave me ugly results with ugly contrast and ugly color.


Full points to you for trying!
I don't know what I was thinking. Yes, normal mode is the way to go, sorry!
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