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STF mode in Maxxum 7 recreated for DSLR's

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Alanbrowne View Drop Down
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Posts: 1056 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Alanbrowne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 17:09
I think you should re-do this with specular highlights in the BG and a scene that is more representative of what the STF lens is made for: portraits.

Having said that, doing portraits with 7 shots (or even 3 - 5) would be difficult no matter how fast the shutter is fired.

I also shudder to think how it could be done in the studio while maintaining lighting ratios and reciprocity - even the TTL flash system would likely not be able to keep up except at high ISO numbers.

Great effort though.

(The STF is still on my 2nd priority list - I have the 135 f/1.8 CZ which has admirable bokeh (not to mention a paper thin DOF at f/1.8)).
 



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Peek View Drop Down
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Posts: 668 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Peek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 17:13
Lol I didn't even know my dynax 7 had that feature!
Doh!
I still want an stf lense though.
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oldguy View Drop Down
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Posts: 762 		Post Options Post Options   Quote oldguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 17:21
I also didn't know the 7 did this. can't wait to try it.
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photoman View Drop Down
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Posts: 373 		Post Options Post Options   Quote photoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 17:26
Originally posted by skm.sa100 skm.sa100 wrote:

Originally posted by photoman photoman wrote:

Originally posted by skm.sa100 skm.sa100 wrote:

By 1/7th exposure, do you mean to say that you set the opacity to 1/7th and used overlay mode?


I just tried what you suggested and it gave me ugly results with ugly contrast and ugly color.


Full points to you for trying!
I don't know what I was thinking. Yes, normal mode is the way to go, sorry!


Hey, it was worth giving a try. It is hard to understand how the different blending modes in photoshop actually work without trying them out. I tried different blending methods until I found out that the method I described seemed to give the best results. Nothing else I tried looked natural.

I was hoping for a more "automatic" method where I could use the same blending settings for all photos rather than manually selecting the opacities. However my search was unable to come up with anything better than manually varying the opacities.

Thanks for the idea though.
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photoman View Drop Down
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Posts: 373 		Post Options Post Options   Quote photoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 17:56
at the request of Alanbrowne, i have redone this technique with a scene that has more specular highlights. Its not exactly a portrait scene, but the highlights are more intense than before.

50mm STF mode


50mm @ f/1.7
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Pekka L View Drop Down
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Posts: 650 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Pekka L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 20:07
Is there really something mechanical preventing this from happening in one go, if the masters presiding over incamera software so desire?

I mean, can the aperture lever not be moved during the exposure? I would imagine that must be possible. They could take out any further problems by rolling the shutter seven times during the exposure, to make sure every aperture position let's light through only for the exact time required.
 



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albnok View Drop Down
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Posts: 1018 		Post Options Post Options   Quote albnok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 20:27
From the Dynax 7 in STF mode:



And here's one that shows the approximate diameters:

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Gabriel View Drop Down
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Posts: 1931 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Gabriel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 20:59
Flektogon 35/2.4:


and Flektogon 35/2.4 in "STF mode":


("STF" combined in camera)
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beline View Drop Down
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Posts: 614 		Post Options Post Options   Quote beline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2009 at 23:22
Originally posted by Pekka L Pekka L wrote:

Is there really something mechanical preventing this from happening in one go, if the masters presiding over incamera software so desire?

I mean, can the aperture lever not be moved during the exposure? I would imagine that must be possible. They could take out any further problems by rolling the shutter seven times during the exposure, to make sure every aperture position let's light through only for the exact time required.


Exactly, I really see no reason the aperture lever can not be moved during exposure, it would be interesting to see if the aperture could be "slide" from one f-stop to the next, with the camera doing the correct calculation to determine the shutter speed.

Or, like you suggest, rolling the shutter without dropping the mirror (which I actually don't think is possible, IIRC the mirror return is mechanicaly significant to the shutter resetting, I may be wrong though)...

However, I distinctly remember getting into the firmware debate some time ago that was decisively ended after one commenter pointed out the REALITY: No mater how simple the update may seem to us, they must go through the same process; concept, approval, development, debugging, submittal, approval, finalizing, distribution. And many little steps in between.

It sucks, but the costs are there, and it is pointless for Sony to implement niche updates that won't actually PAY for themselves.

Sure WE would love it, but how many consumers are going to know what STF means, or even want it? How many people do you think it would sway? not many...

Edited by beline - 04 November 2009 at 00:25
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N_Raged View Drop Down
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Posts: 320 		Post Options Post Options   Quote N_Raged Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2009 at 04:39
This looks sweet. Time to find me a Fantasy card for my Maxxum 7000i, which does this very effect.


Originally posted by wolfdagon wolfdagon wrote:

It woud be great if they could implement the STF function in the A700 in firmware upgrade.
Can we stop dwelling on the A700?
It's discontinued, EOL, kaput. Sony is not going to add new features through firmware .
And it wouldn't make sense for Sony to include an STF mode in camera. Doing so would kill sales of the 135/2.8 STF lens itself.

Edited by N_Raged - 04 November 2009 at 04:48
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wolfdagon View Drop Down
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Posts: 78 		Post Options Post Options   Quote wolfdagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2009 at 07:02
Originally posted by N_Raged N_Raged wrote:

Can we stop dwelling on the A700?
It's discontinued, EOL, kaput. Sony is not going to add new features through firmware .


I'm afraid that I will be dwelling on the A700 for at least a few years. I dont plan on upgrading anytime soon. I realize that it is discontinued, and that we will not be getting any more firmware upgrades (at least not from Sony). I'm just saying it would be nice.


Originally posted by N_Raged N_Raged wrote:

And it wouldn't make sense for Sony to include an STF mode in camera. Doing so would kill sales of the 135/2.8 STF lens itself.


I also agree with you on this. I was always surprised that Minolta included it in the Maxxum 7 for this reason.
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Lazer13 View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lazer13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2009 at 08:05
STF mode in the cameras would not kill the sales of the 135 STF lens.
The 135STF achieves the effect in one shot which makes it possible to use on moving targets. (Flowers outdoors, portraits etc..)
The STF mode would only be useful on tripod with still targets.
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LetoAtreidesII View Drop Down
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Posts: 266 		Post Options Post Options   Quote LetoAtreidesII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2009 at 08:07
If they implement "STF mode" by moving the aperture blades during a single exposure, then it would be useful handheld and with non-static targets.
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AlexKarasev View Drop Down
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Posts: 874 		Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexKarasev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2009 at 08:24
Originally posted by LetoAtreidesII LetoAtreidesII wrote:

If they implement "STF mode" by moving the aperture blades during a single exposure, then it would be useful handheld and with non-static targets.


... and with any lens (incl 135/1.8 :) and in AF mode as well, and last but not least the STF effect can be far more tunable/flexible as far as strength and character, compared to a fixed STF effect implemented in the 135 STF.

The only real limitation is for the in-camera STF mode is that the shutter speed must be no higher than the camera's X-sync shutter speed (1/250...1/300 sec on high-end shutters; slower on lower end cams) and likely even a little slower. While limiting, this would still be plenty useful considering this would be free with all of one's lenses as opposed to the 135STF, which is just one expensive manual focus lens. This limitation is due to the fact that the entire frame has to be exposed when the shutter blades are being moved during the exposure to create the STF effect. On speeds faster than X-sync, the frame is exposed sequentially as the gap between the shutter blades is traveling vertically, exposing corresponding areas of the frame.

The other limitation is the aperture has to be stopped down from wide open some (to allow the blades to move in both directions from the "average" aperture of the shot, for optimal STF effect). The reason this is not a real limitation is that the apodization element responsible for the STF effect on the 135/2.8T4.5STF lens is doing the exact same thing. Think of that apodization element (which gets darker towards the periphery and is clear in the middle) as the "motion blur" of those moving aperture blades, captured permanently in a piece of glass. That's where the T4.5 comes from. The advantage of the mechanical STF effect over a fixed element is the former is a lot more flexible and configurable. In particular it can be made more pronounced at smaller apertures compared to what's possible with the fixed apodization element that also has to serve wider apertures.

-- Alex Karasev
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