FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Electronic Shutter

Author
RichardT View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 24 February 2010
Country: United Kingdom
Location: North West
Status: Offline
Posts: 1013
Post Options Post Options   Quote RichardT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Electronic Shutter
    Posted: 11 February 2021 at 15:09
Question for the experts - watching the DPR first impressions video of the A1 the guy referred to the use (or not) of the electronic first curtain shutter mode and how it might affect the cameras resolution as opposed to the full mechanical version.
I have a A7m2 which has this - as far as I can see from the menu - I've always used the electronic version as its quieter but now I'm confused - is there a visible difference in the resolution of the two options ?
Thoughts please !
Many thanks
Richard T
So many wines, so little time......
 



Back to Top
Dopol View Drop Down
Alpha Eyes group
Alpha Eyes group

Joined: 17 May 2007
Country: Netherlands
Location: Amsterdam
Status: Offline
Posts: 7302
Post Options Post Options   Quote Dopol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2021 at 15:16
The electronic shutter reads out the sensor at high speed
Anything you photograph with comparible or higher speed may get deformed
I've seen it with hummmingbird wings (A7Riv). The photo showed mulitple wings or at least something that cannot be recognized as moving wing.
I never had it with an A9, despite trying.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken
Back to Top
beardedspoooon View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 18 December 2012
Country: United States
Location: Columbia, SC
Status: Offline
Posts: 731
Post Options Post Options   Quote beardedspoooon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2021 at 15:47
When I had the A7II, I would use the electronic shutter a lot of the time, but only outdoors when people weren't moving that fast or indoors at slow shutter speeds. There is a huge difference in sensor readout speed, even between the A7II and A7III.
Back to Top
sybersitizen View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 04 August 2006
Country: United States
Location: California
Status: Offline
Posts: 14379
Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2021 at 15:53
Originally posted by RichardT RichardT wrote:

I've always used the electronic version as its quieter but now I'm confused - is there a visible difference in the resolution of the two options ?

Resolution shouldn't change with electronic shutter, but bit depth can change.
Back to Top
Howard_S View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 20 March 2008
Country: United Kingdom
Location: Oxford
Status: Offline
Posts: 2899
Post Options Post Options   Quote Howard_S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2021 at 16:05
And in these older cameras, isn't banding an issue with e-shutters?
Howard Stanbury Instagram | Flickr | Web
Back to Top
gigo View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 March 2008
Country: Japan
Location: Yokohama
Status: Offline
Posts: 348
Post Options Post Options   Quote gigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2021 at 16:13
For electronic shutters

1) Line erasure (electronic front curtain)
2) Line read

However, mechanical shutters do not require 1), so they are faster than electronic shutters. Since it can be used for AD conversion for a long time, accuracy can be obtained, and because there is no 1), it does not consume power and is a little advantageous in terms of thermal noise.
As is clear from the fact that the A1 can be flash-tuned at 1/200 even with an electronic shutter, it has reached the level of a normal mechanical shutter in terms of speed.
Well, the mechanical shutter of A1 is an unprecedented thing that is synchronized at 1/400.
In APS-C, 1/500 is the speed that is the limit even with a lens shutter that is overwhelmingly advantageous in terms of tuning speed because there is always a moment when it is fully opened.

The other point is not the problem of the electronic type itself, but since the front curtain and the rear curtain of the focal plane shutter cannot be placed on the same plane, it affects the image when diagonal light enters the slits created by both curtains. I will. Specifically, for example, the shape of the blur changes.
The electronic front curtain has a more significant effect than the mechanical type because it is farther away from the mechanical rear curtain. If it is a pure electronic shutter, the virtual front curtain is completely the same plane as the rear curtain, so it is an ideal shutter that is impossible with a mechanical type. (The story of the lens shutter is different)
If the curtain speed is fast, the exposure slit at the same shutter speed can be widened, so the effect can be reduced.

EDIT: add,
If there is no mechanical front curtain, the image sensor and the rear curtain can be brought closer to each other, so the influence is reduced.

Edited by gigo - 11 February 2021 at 16:25
ILCE-1, FE:24/35/STF/135/10400GM, 90M/24105/200600G+6, 1.4x/2xTC
ILCE-QX1, Full Sprctrum NEX-5R, E:2
LA-EA5, A:35G/100S/200M/500R,3x-1x +7
 



Back to Top
pegelli View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Dyxum Administrator

Joined: 02 June 2007
Country: Belgium
Location: Schilde
Status: Online
Posts: 31022
Post Options Post Options   Quote pegelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2021 at 16:15
Originally posted by Howard_S Howard_S wrote:

And in these older cameras, isn't banding an issue with e-shutters?
Only in artificial light (pulsing at 50 or 60 Hz)

Outside in natural light there's no banding, only deformation of moving objects.
Feel foolish, no problem, sign up for April Foolishness here
Back to Top
Howard_S View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 20 March 2008
Country: United Kingdom
Location: Oxford
Status: Offline
Posts: 2899
Post Options Post Options   Quote Howard_S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2021 at 16:27
Thanks, yes, I meant under artificial light. I photographed a meeting with the silent shutter of an A7 III without thinking about this and got several unusable shots. So if I use 1/50 s would I overcome this?
Howard Stanbury Instagram | Flickr | Web
Back to Top
gigo View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 March 2008
Country: Japan
Location: Yokohama
Status: Offline
Posts: 348
Post Options Post Options   Quote gigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2021 at 16:48
Originally posted by Howard_S Howard_S wrote:

Thanks, yes, I meant under artificial light. I photographed a meeting with the silent shutter of an A7 III without thinking about this and got several unusable shots. So if I use 1/50 s would I overcome this?

I think this will be helpful. Until now, anti-flicker was a function only for mechanical shutters, but from 9II, electronic shutters have become more sophisticated.
https://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/support/ilc/flicker/01/en/index.html

However, it is severe if there are multiple high-frequency lights that are not synchronized with each other.
Rather, power synchronization is easier.
ILCE-1, FE:24/35/STF/135/10400GM, 90M/24105/200600G+6, 1.4x/2xTC
ILCE-QX1, Full Sprctrum NEX-5R, E:2
LA-EA5, A:35G/100S/200M/500R,3x-1x +7
Back to Top
QuietOC View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 February 2015
Country: United States
Location: Michigan
Status: Online
Posts: 3221
Post Options Post Options   Quote QuietOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2021 at 17:05
The A7II does not have a silent shutter (fully electronic) option. It does have electronic first curtain which is enabled by default. The A7RII was the first model with the silent shutter option.

Electronic first curtain has some weird effects on out-of-focus and can cause overexposure with SLR lenses with slow aperture mechanisms.

Edited by QuietOC - 11 February 2021 at 17:08
Sony A7RII NEX-5T HVL-F45RM LA-EA3 LA-EA4r MB-IV MC-11 EF-E II TLT ROKR MD-NEX KR-NEX DA-NEX
Minolta Maxxum 600si
Pentax Q7 5-15 15-45/2.8 8.5/1.9 11.5/9 AF-P/Q
Back to Top
beardedspoooon View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 18 December 2012
Country: United States
Location: Columbia, SC
Status: Offline
Posts: 731
Post Options Post Options   Quote beardedspoooon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2021 at 17:18
Originally posted by Howard_S Howard_S wrote:

Thanks, yes, I meant under artificial light. I photographed a meeting with the silent shutter of an A7 III without thinking about this and got several unusable shots. So if I use 1/50 s would I overcome this?


That's what I do. I just slow the shutter until the banding is gone. If it's too slow then I switch to mechanical.
Back to Top
gigo View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 March 2008
Country: Japan
Location: Yokohama
Status: Offline
Posts: 348
Post Options Post Options   Quote gigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2021 at 11:32
A friend told me that mechanical shutters, pure electronic shutters and electronic front curtains should be distinguished, especially electronic shutters and electronic front curtains.
Although it is in Japanese, I would like to introduce this good article.
https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/column/ml/1176043.html
ILCE-1, FE:24/35/STF/135/10400GM, 90M/24105/200600G+6, 1.4x/2xTC
ILCE-QX1, Full Sprctrum NEX-5R, E:2
LA-EA5, A:35G/100S/200M/500R,3x-1x +7
Back to Top
RichardT View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 24 February 2010
Country: United Kingdom
Location: North West
Status: Offline
Posts: 1013
Post Options Post Options   Quote RichardT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2021 at 15:24
Many Thanks Everyone
I am now much better informed, thanks for all your inputs, much appreciated !
All the best
Richard T

Edited by RichardT - 12 February 2021 at 17:57
So many wines, so little time......
Back to Top
Dyxum main page >  Forum Home > Equipment forums > Camera Talk > E-mount full frame

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.

Monitor calibration strip

Dyxum.com - Home of the alpha system photographer

In memory of Cameron Hill - brettania

Feel free to contact us if needed.