TP: Cheap secondary wireless flash?

chych wrote: Aaron, thanks for your system layout, it certainly is a way for me to do this and I will look into. As I'm fine with triggering the flashes with the built-in flash, I'd like to know how the item in ebay id# 300090153180 works. It looks like it may have an optical sensor that's triggered from the camera's signaling, but I'm not clear on how exposures work.

First let tell you what the Pheonix 92 isn't! It is not an automatic flash (no p-ttl or adi). It is simply put a "booster" for your popup. Yes, via 3 different switch settings you can negate the preflash signals to the flash and it then flashes with (in sync) your popup. It uses the same thrystor circuitry I have been talking about, using your camera at a set aprature, (ie; manual mode or set aprature priority)

The IR illuminator on the Pheonix WILL NOT WORK unless it is directly attached to the camera hot shoe with a Minolta/Sony foot(not FS-1100 adapted).

In essence you would be buying a cheap auto thrystor flash with no power settings and only two A modes with a built in optical slave sensor. Why do this to yourself when you already have the great 500 DG you can bounce trigger with and fire regular optical slaves attached to far more powerful and infinitly more flexable used low cost auto thrystor flashes (Sunpak 333/433; Nikon SB-20, 25; Metz 32 MZ-1, MZ-2; Vivitar 383, 385, etc) with selectable power settings. The portable flash unit is acting much like a true monolight in this way.

Let me stress the importance of the multiple power settings. If you want to put a small amount of light on your subject you can simply switch the power setting switch to the amount of power (actually duration) you want without worrying with some type of diffusion. Or in most portrait situtations actually blowing out the subject with a full blown flash. This is exactly what you will get with the dumb slave flashes reguardless of how much tilt, swivel, or zoom they have.

But it seems so simple. You will note the flash picture they provided was to light up the back yard fence, fine they are showing the only true application this type of flash is good for...boosting the distance of your popup. Remember also you will still need to be setting in the aprature that the flash is set at. The camera does not know those flashes are out there and will do it's best to fill the scene with the popup.

Keep in mind if you try to use ADI with you popup and the slave flash this combination will not product accurate settings. The settings in the camera are determined during preflash which the slave flash is ignoring. Also you still have the annoying and sometime determinal "lazy eye" issure as long as preflash is present.

Edited by georgiaboy - 13 March 2007 at 16:57

chych wrote: Thanks for the clarifications georgiaboy. I certainly want control over the exposures, so I think I'll be looking into the optical hotshoe + good manual flash setup. One last question, how is the optical slave hotshoe triggered? I take it that it fires when the camera's on-board flash fires? Does this make it incompatible with the minolta wireless flashing protocol (i.e. if I want the Sigma 500 wireless using minolta protocol, and a different flash wireless on an optical hotshoe)?

Yes that is a problem. THe popup will preflash and cause your optical remotes to flash premature. I use, as stated my 500 dg as the fill trigger flash, I am in manual exposure mode determined by my flash meter and simply use the 500 on the camera. No, you are not using the automated wireless protocal. But, it is in a studio type arrangement and this is not absolutely necessary. I do often use my popup and 500 in wireless for "walking around photography" or to use on a high flash bracket. You will not be using your popup to flash your slaves, but, your 500 on board the hotshoe does that.

sooten wrote: Aaron, I have the 5D and I know I can't turn off the pre-flash. My question would be could I use PC chords to fire the second, third, etc... flashes from the (in my case) Sony 56 flash. Example: have the on camera flash up to trigger the remote 56 wirelessly, then a PC chord from the 56 to the next light, etc... Would this work? Substitute the PC chord for the optical triggers? For some reason I hate the idea of using a $350 flash simply as a trigger for $20 flashes and not be able to use it in an umbrella as my main light! Your thoughts and willingness to share are greatly appreciated. Thanks, Scott

Hi Scott,

You know you may have something there. I have never tried that mainly because I am always moving the light stands around in an effort to achieve a certain effect. This said I was trying to eliminate any wires that could get in models or my way. However, I'm with you about using the high dollar flash as a trigger. I would suggest before you buy I bunch of synch cables just try this with one cheap flash and be sure this will work. The problem I see is how or what kind of adapter are you going to use for the sync port from your flash? I don't know of any Minolta foot to oem adapter with a sync port. One could fabricate perhaps. Aaron

Aaron, one question - when you fire the trigger flash _with_ preflash (so it actually flashes twice), do the flashes on the optical hotshoe also fire twice? Or just once?

I was playing around with my EF-500 in wireless slave mode (manual exposures, not with the minolta protocol) and it looks like it flashes twice, triggered from the built-in flash that pre-flashes. If the optical hotshoe flashes also fire twice, then it should be possible to use the EF-500 wirelessly, with the built-in flash triggering. However the built-in flash also adds lighting too, so I'd probably want to make a diffuser/reflector for it to get better lighting.

If this works, this could solve sooten's problem too, so the big expensive flash can also be used wirelessly with cheap secondary WL flashes. Of course if your subject blinks from preflash, then that would be a problem (maybe 2 sec timer can be used).

Another curiosity is that the EF-500 in slave mode does not trigger when the camera is on WL mode; perhaps the EF-500 filters this out, but you confirm that the optical hotshoes do trigger when the camera fires its flash in WL mode?


edit: nevermind, I tried this again and there are synchronization issues with the EF-500; the method I mentioned will not really work...

Edited by chych - 16 March 2007 at 03:46

You can use the 5600HS(D) in wireless TTL mode and at the same time use two of the signals out of the accessory port to trigger remote flashes. I will post a diagram when I get home tonight.

For example, set up the 5600HS(D) for good exposure of the main subject. Then use the sync output of the 5600 to radio trigger a gelled colored background light and a hair light.

georgiaboy wrote: sooten: I do not have a 56 flash nor have I used one. If it has a sync port on it, it might be able to sync other flashes via a sync cord. Heck try one and see. I would however, not knowing about this, advise using a flash with low sync voltage. I don't know how or if a high voltage unit might effect your 56. BTW, those intelligent sync devices you mention in the other thread show promise. chych: I can see you have stumbled on some of the same frustrations I did. I went down that path as well. It seemed to work one time then did not the next time. The issue is that the optical flashes are dumb.They fire as soon as they see light, any light. Now sooten has found some more intelligent sensors that to me show real promise with being able to use the 500 in wl and still get only one light pulse to the remote thrystor flashes. See his thread about these. They are however expensive but if your only buying two or three they may be worth it. I think I'm going to order one and just try it.   Aaron

sooten wrote: Aaron, I have the 5D and I know I can't turn off the pre-flash. My question would be could I use PC chords to fire the second, third, etc... flashes from the (in my case) Sony 56 flash. Example: have the on camera flash up to trigger the remote 56 wirelessly, then a PC chord from the 56 to the next light, etc... Would this work? Substitute the PC chord for the optical triggers? For some reason I hate the idea of using a $350 flash simply as a trigger for $20 flashes and not be able to use it in an umbrella as my main light! Your thoughts and willingness to share are greatly appreciated. Thanks, Scott

If you put the 56 in manual mode, it's possible to turn off preflash. But then it's an expensive flash trigger.

Some of those e-bay hot shoe adaptor's with a radio or ir trigger could do the same. You could also start with a sync cord from the adaptor. I don't recommend placing a big flash on an adaptor, it becomes a little bit instable.

Alain

Mojo:

Thanks much for the isolation circuit. I have printed it out for future assembly. I can see multiple uses for my in-studio setup. sooten was of need for this arrangement and hopefully he will read this post. He has the 56.

Alain:

Thanks for your thoughts. chych was trying to eliminate using his Sigma EF500 DG Super as a big expensive trigger. He wants to use his 500 in wireless mode (as main flash with umbrella) activated by the a100 on-board flash. The trouble is of course preflash then activates the "dumb" optical sensors on the flashes used for fill, back ground, hair light, etc.

Now sooten found some intelligent optical sensors (in China of course) that can "ignore" the wireless communication pulses and only fire at the main pulse thus syncing correctly. Wein has a peanut digital PD sensor but they are not selectable and some photograpers on Stroblist have had bad experiences with them. I ordered one of the Chinese versions today. You can use multiple ones or one with sync cables on flashshoe/umbrella holders simular to MojoRick's second diagram only using 500 off camera wireless.

chych does not care about the wires, I do, I don't want any at all...thus the optical sensors at every light for me!

There are other alternatives such as radio triggers but, experience from my best friend says not consistant enough. I could cough up 200.00 per copy of 500 DG's and easily have 1000.00 in flashes alone, this is not a viable solution at this time. Using low cost flexible, adjustable flashes is great for me.

As far as putting a large flash on an adaptor, I always use gaffer tape on open end of flash shoe slide for added security and rock bags on each light stand.

Your right Stroblist is a great site. BTW Canon guys are fighting this same problem.

Edited by georgiaboy - 17 March 2007 at 20:59