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TP: Photography not allowed?

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catlady View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote catlady Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: TP: Photography not allowed?
    Posted: 12 November 2007 at 23:16
I took some photos of an event. I put them up on Smugmug. They're not for sale, it's just the hosting site I use. I thought the people who took part in the event might be interested in seeing them so I e-mailed the organisers.

What came back was a demand that I remove the photos as I didn't have their permission (" a licence") and they claimed I was infringing their copyright, and that of the Forestry Commission whose land the event took place on. I explained again that I was not selling. They then said no problem but I should get their "media accreditation"...they didn't say but I'm guessing there would be a cost to that.

Just another example of the ongoing nastiness towards our hobby in the UK? If landowners have copyright over all images including their land, what hope for landscape photographers? If we can't take pictures of events and share them without a "licence", how long before public photography is banned?

I don't think I'm paranoid; we've had a lot of publicity here this year about people being warned off over street photography, and threatened for photographing children (there was one where a gentleman was taking pictures of his own son playing football and one of the other children's mothers wanted to call in the police!)

What do you think?

[Topic moved into Knowledge Base -- brettania]

Edited by brettania - 13 November 2007 at 22:06
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RosieA100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RosieA100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2007 at 23:39
How rediculous!!!! It's makes me so cross

We have a petition here in Australia (http://www.petitiononline.com/ausphoto/) so that we can try and make the polititions understand that most of us are just taking pictures for our benefit and usually the professionals among us are up front with organisors of events and have proper accreditation, it's those sneaky "up skirters" and the like that are giving us a bad name. We are trying to stop the legislators from making it law that there be camera free zones. Currently there are 4542 signatures ~ any Aussies out there please add your name!

Our camera club was out a few weeks ago taking night shots of a local shopping centre area. A stupid guard came out and told us we were not allowed to photograph there... our President told him where to go ~ very nicely and we ignored him. Along came his mate, another guard and together they told us to move on. Our Pres pressed the point that we were only taking pics of the mall and street and it was actually quite legal for us to do this and no, we wouldn't leave! They rang their boss and he spoke to our Pres and after a 2 min conversation all was ok and we were allowed to stay. Well, these 2 guards were peeed off that they they looked stupid so they went off and about 10 mins later the police arrived ~ couldn't believe it ~ so the up shot of that was that we weren't allowed to stand on the centre steps to take our pics and we really should move on, so we did! A bit further down the road we were set up again and would you believe it but another guard appears!!! "Oh great" was our reaction, "here we go again"! The experience couldn't have been more different. He asked what we were doing and who we were and then invited us all into the Town Hall to take as many pics as we wanted!!!! He could have given those other guards a lesson or 2 on PR!!!

Wow, that was long... sorry ~ catlady, I'm with you!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cjc181166 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2007 at 23:40
Is this from that Rally you took photos at? I read their Press application and it seems rather amatuerish. Considering it is run by a magazine.

It just seems that everyone is high sensitive to trying to protect copyright, even when there are none.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote badlydrawnroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2007 at 23:42
Your not paranoid catlady, they are out to get you !
You try to do someone a good turn and it 'bites you'
Makes you wish for the 'good old days' eh when people were assumed innocent until proven otherwise.
I was at a Go Kart track recently with someone karting. I had my camera and was practising panning on the fast moving carts. The owner came and stopped me because there were children driving the carts. I pointed out they had wacking great face helmets on and they could have been smurfs !
Determined not to go quietly, I announced myself to the 'massed' parents told them what I was doing and collected e-mail addresses for anyone who wanted a photo sending.

Roy
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Post Options Post Options   Quote catlady Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2007 at 23:47
Rosie...thanks. Glad your group got a good guy at the second site.
Craig, yes that's the one. I won't go near any of their events again (and therefore not pay their car parking fee).
Roy...good for you!
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brettania View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote brettania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2007 at 23:52
Originally posted by catlady catlady wrote:


What came back was a demand that I remove the photos as I didn't have their permission (" a licence") and they claimed I was infringing their copyright, and that of the Forestry Commission whose land the event took place on. I explained again that I was not selling. They then said no problem but I should get their "media accreditation"...they didn't say but I'm guessing there would be a cost to that.


Why not go back to them and ask for media accreditation (stating that the pics are still not for commercial use) and since one spin-off is that you are helping publicise an official event, something which they surely would welcome -- that if any charges are involved they should waive them. If you are not making money, why should they make money out of you. Also if there were other people taking snaps, ask what has happened to their pics.

Be very nice and see what they say.

If they insist on a charge, take down the pics from Smugmug, and start writing to newpapers and ringing talk shows. Also write to the MP covering the Forestry Commission and the local MP for the area.
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote wetapunga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2007 at 23:57
Well, I think at one level we have to acknowledge that changes in technology, has led to an entirely new impact on people's right to privacy. Digital technology has made cameras more accessible- many cellphones have one- and the internet has made distribution easier. That has meant previous standards of privacy have simply collapsed, and this is exacerbated by umm, scum, who take and distribute humiliating or perverted pictures of people.

I take photos of disabled children at for Riding for the Disabled.   I need- and obtain- consents to do so. It gives parents and the children the privacy they need. I'm completely okay with this.

It does though sound as if the pendulum has swung a little too far in the UK. Appropriate uses of cameras- to say take candid photos of a child's football match- doesn't seem to be something worthy of legal conflict.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 924nut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2007 at 00:11
Originally posted by badlydrawnroy badlydrawnroy wrote:

Your not paranoid catlady, they are out to get you !
You try to do someone a good turn and it 'bites you'
Makes you wish for the 'good old days' eh when people were assumed innocent until proven otherwise.
I was at a Go Kart track recently with someone karting. I had my camera and was practising panning on the fast moving carts. The owner came and stopped me because there were children driving the carts. I pointed out they had wacking great face helmets on and they could have been smurfs !
Determined not to go quietly, I announced myself to the 'massed' parents told them what I was doing and collected e-mail addresses for anyone who wanted a photo sending.

Roy


Roy - I totally agree with you it is madness but dont blame the circuit owners or officials they are only applying the Law in its current form - they can be closed down if people taking photographs of children do not sign on.
I am resident photographer at Wombwell kart track in yorkshire - but as long as you sign in there is not a problem - this is a completely different issue to the one that started the post - selling or showing photographs of motor race meetings in the UK has become very prohibitive and personally i just dont bother now - and yes the media accreditation is hard to come by or you have to pay a large fee for the right to sell display images!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote analytical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2007 at 01:52
A difficult issue. In the US you may be photographed in a public place without your permission. Local ordinances have nibbled the edges, usual in the interest of protecting children, but the broad issue is constitutional. But that's legality and deals with only one of three issues: creating the image.

However to publish (in any form) the image generally does require permission, assuming the individual can be recognized, certainly for any commercial purpose, but even for non-profit. The individual is considered to own the copyright on his or her own likeness.            

Specific UK law will likely be different of course.

The third issue is manners and/or ethics. Many people would object to having their image published, especially if they did not anticipate that they would be photographed. I think most people would agree that getting permisssion is the right approach, even if when not legally required.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cezarL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2007 at 02:02
So....what? If you go out on a weekend to do some street photography, you have to run after each shot, and ask the people if they're happy with you showing us the pics?

(let's not forget that street shooting is often not about the individual, but about the whole setting and circumstance depicted)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cekari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2007 at 02:16
This is starting to get realy redicules...

Oh, you took a pic of that bird, it has a nest at my land. Give me money... Sorry, but WTF...

Why not tell them you are making a free ad for them and now... how about they pay you for that?

Silly dworks... Sorry again, but I get so mad about things like this...

I do understand about children and private etc, but a public event... when will they demand we go to those blindfolded?

Aaarggh!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Shercando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2007 at 02:36
I am in the USA and had a bad experience at a large shopping mall here. I wanted to capture candid shots of happy faced Holiday shoppers just before Christmas two years ago. I set myself up against a wall next to a column between two shops. I got off two shots when a burly security guard set upon me ordering me to stop immediately as no photography is allowed in the mall. He ejected me from the premises, hands on, while lecturing me on the way to the nearest exit that no mall in Madison Wisconsin permits photography.

It's not been tested legally here that I know of but there is an argument that mall shop owners object and their agencies do not allow their places to be photographed except by those hired.   

For me, it was a terrible insult to be physically ejected exactly like a drunk tossed out of a saloon. He said if I came back in that he would have me arrested by city police.

This was hammered out in ad nauseam another forum with final results that the malls have the right to exclude anyone they wish. Once ordered off, a re-entry is trespassing and a criminal offense that can be enforced by city police.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eddyizm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2007 at 02:39
next thing you know we'll be labeled terrorists and there will be a new "war on photographers"

i wish i was more joking than not. :-|
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hoffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2007 at 02:45
It does seem rather extreme. I am into Motorsport photography as well & I emailed a promoter once with similar questions. They basically said that as long as the pictures were not used for commercial reasons at all (that includes sale as well as using them for any other promotion or campaing) that it was OK to post them.

BUT, on my forum, we decided to create a year book of motorsport images, which would be for sale (I.E., to cover the cost of the book only, no profit). This time we went to the governing body of the particular category & they said no way or pay royalties. So, the book is now out of the question.

I to a degree, do accept that organisations & bodies do need to protect their image & their assests. They are in it to make money, so basically profiting from what they have established is out.

But where do you draw the line? The Australian Football League this year advised that only photographers from their agency could cover games (at a professional level). Cricket Australia have done something similar. Events such as the Australian Grand prix have mandated that lenses less the 200mm be used in public areas. To be honest, I dont think it will be long until all non accredited photography is banned from such events.
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