FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Which is the best FE body for nightscapes?

Page  <123>
Author
nandbytes View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 09 January 2014
Country: United Kingdom
Location: London
Status: Offline
Posts: 3395
Post Options Post Options   Quote nandbytes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2021 at 15:58
A7S isn't actually any better or worst than A7RIV for example. if you downsize the files from A7RIV to same resolution as A7SIII you'd end up with a similar result.
you can do this comparison on dpreview's studio, you will notice there isn't much difference if any.
A7SIII has other benefits but those aren't of much consequence to OP's purpose I think.
my flickr
A7IV, G100, GM5, G5xii, DJI Air2s
 



Back to Top
QuietOC View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 28 February 2015
Country: United States
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Posts: 3586
Post Options Post Options   Quote QuietOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2021 at 16:11
Originally posted by nandbytes nandbytes wrote:

A7S isn't actually any better or worst than A7RIV for example. if you downsize the files from A7RIV to same resolution as A7SIII you'd end up with a similar result.
you can do this comparison on dpreview's studio, you will notice there isn't much difference if any.
A7SIII has other benefits but those aren't of much consequence to OP's purpose I think.

I'd say a practical advantage of the 12 MP models is the live-view quality in low light. The other cameras line-skip for their live-view feed. I have carefully chosen the live-view settings of my A7RIV, but the live-view image still often looks awful. The A1 might be better since it can read much faster.
Sony A7RIV LA-EA5
Pentax Q7 5-15 15-45/2.8 8.5/1.9 11.5/9
Back to Top
addy landzaat View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 22 April 2006
Country: Netherlands
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Posts: 13349
Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2021 at 16:18
Originally posted by onsplekkie onsplekkie wrote:

I know you've said no A7s because of 12MP.
But in my experience, if you looking for the BEST high iso preformance you'll have a hard time finding anything that comes close to the A7s series.

I am no expert, but these youtubers seems amazed by the fact they can't see a (big) difference between a 12MP and 102MP file, either on screen or in small/big prints. I konw it's all objective, but still...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Sej2TEes4&ab_channel=ChrisHau

Link does not work for me.
Wanted to say the same thing as Anand.
The A7r4 has a 240mp pixelshift - but Facebook/Instagram destroys 90%. But still, 24mp is more then 12mp

Gerald Undone changed his A7r4 and his A7s3 for the A1. To be sure, you should do the same! (no, not really, just kidding, it is silly expensive)
Why not follow me on Instagram? @Addy_101
Back to Top
addy landzaat View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 22 April 2006
Country: Netherlands
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Posts: 13349
Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2021 at 16:21
Originally posted by QuietOC QuietOC wrote:

Originally posted by nandbytes nandbytes wrote:

A7S isn't actually any better or worst than A7RIV for example. if you downsize the files from A7RIV to same resolution as A7SIII you'd end up with a similar result.
you can do this comparison on dpreview's studio, you will notice there isn't much difference if any.
A7SIII has other benefits but those aren't of much consequence to OP's purpose I think.

I'd say a practical advantage of the 12 MP models is the live-view quality in low light. The other cameras line-skip for their live-view feed. I have carefully chosen the live-view settings of my A7RIV, but the live-view image still often looks awful. The A1 might be better since it can read much faster.
That is why Sony uses these 12mp sensors for the video centric cameras.
Why not follow me on Instagram? @Addy_101
Back to Top
Jonas A-R View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 29 December 2007
Country: Denmark
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Posts: 1646
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jonas A-R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2021 at 17:19
Originally posted by QuietOC QuietOC wrote:

Originally posted by Jonas A-R Jonas A-R wrote:

Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Noise is among the least important things when it comes to high ISO, I find the decrease in dynamic range and colour fidelity much more important. YMMV.


What do you think decrease the DR and colour fidelity?
I think you will find that noise is the culprit


The highlight clipping done at high ISO settings seems like the cause of the reduced dynamic range to me. The noise isn't increasing.

That is true. However, if your highlights are clipped, you have set the ISO too high.
If the highlights are preserved at high ISOs, the DR will reduced relatively to the base ISO. This is because the exposure (“the signal”) in the DR ratio is reduced. You don’t need a lot of bits to encode all of that noise.

In some DR metrics (photographic DR by Bill Claff for example) some photon noise is included in the definition of the lower end of the range to estimate “the useable” DR.
a9 a6300
21/2.8 Loxia 35/1.4Z 50/1.4Z 85/1.4GM 90/2.8G Laowa 100mm F2.8 Ultra Macro 100/2.8GM 135/1.8GM
12-24/4G 24-105/4G 100-400/4-5.6GM 2x TC
Back to Top
addy landzaat View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 22 April 2006
Country: Netherlands
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Posts: 13349
Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2021 at 18:17
Originally posted by Jonas A-R Jonas A-R wrote:

Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Noise is among the least important things when it comes to high ISO, I find the decrease in dynamic range and colour fidelity much more important. YMMV.


What do you think decrease the DR and colour fidelity?
I think you will find that noise is the culprit
If you're right there should always be a constant relation between dynamic range and visible noise. If that is true, it does not make sense that dynamic range is measured at all, since you can just measure the noise and calculate (?) the dynamic range.
there is a relation between noise and dynamic range because where is noise there can be no information. But I doubt there is a constant relation.

Looking at the measurements by DXO Mark, I notice that the difference between the A900 and the A99m2 in noise at any given ISO setting is different then the difference in dynamic range. Also, I feel the A99m2 and A900 useful at the same dynamic range measurement, not so with noise.

And finally, I feel visible noise is seldom reason to lower the ISO setting, dynamic range always is.
Why not follow me on Instagram? @Addy_101
 



Back to Top
Jonas A-R View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 29 December 2007
Country: Denmark
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Posts: 1646
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jonas A-R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2021 at 19:30
Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Originally posted by Jonas A-R Jonas A-R wrote:

Originally posted by addy landzaat addy landzaat wrote:

Noise is among the least important things when it comes to high ISO, I find the decrease in dynamic range and colour fidelity much more important. YMMV.


What do you think decrease the DR and colour fidelity?
I think you will find that noise is the culprit
If you're right there should always be a constant relation between dynamic range and visible noise. If that is true, it does not make sense that dynamic range is measured at all, since you can just measure the noise and calculate (?) the dynamic range.
there is a relation between noise and dynamic range because where is noise there can be no information. But I doubt there is a constant relation.

Looking at the measurements by DXO Mark, I notice that the difference between the A900 and the A99m2 in noise at any given ISO setting is different then the difference in dynamic range. Also, I feel the A99m2 and A900 useful at the same dynamic range measurement, not so with noise.

And finally, I feel visible noise is seldom reason to lower the ISO setting, dynamic range always is.


You can measure the saturation capacity and noise floor and calculate the ratio. That is how it is done.

What I am trying to say: you don’t need an awful lot of DR at low exposures (expected at high ISOs) because of the noise. If you have specular, blown highlights then it is much better to keep the ISO low and raise it when the image is developed from raw. This preserves the DR of the sensor and you will generally not have a noise penalty by raising the ISO when the image is processed (compared to shooting at the higher ISO)
Typically the light level is fixed in a scene. It is good practice to set the exposure first (aperture and shutter speed) to maximize it. The ISO will fall wherever it fits and there is not much that can be done abut it unless you change the DoF or the amount of motion blur.
a9 a6300
21/2.8 Loxia 35/1.4Z 50/1.4Z 85/1.4GM 90/2.8G Laowa 100mm F2.8 Ultra Macro 100/2.8GM 135/1.8GM
12-24/4G 24-105/4G 100-400/4-5.6GM 2x TC
Back to Top
nandbytes View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 09 January 2014
Country: United Kingdom
Location: London
Status: Offline
Posts: 3395
Post Options Post Options   Quote nandbytes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2021 at 19:36
Originally posted by QuietOC QuietOC wrote:

Originally posted by nandbytes nandbytes wrote:

A7S isn't actually any better or worst than A7RIV for example. if you downsize the files from A7RIV to same resolution as A7SIII you'd end up with a similar result.
you can do this comparison on dpreview's studio, you will notice there isn't much difference if any.
A7SIII has other benefits but those aren't of much consequence to OP's purpose I think.

I'd say a practical advantage of the 12 MP models is the live-view quality in low light. The other cameras line-skip for their live-view feed. I have carefully chosen the live-view settings of my A7RIV, but the live-view image still often looks awful. The A1 might be better since it can read much faster.


yep as mentioned above that is why they use in video cameras.
And true a nice live view especially in the dark can use helpful too for OP. But still I wouldn't pick A7S solely for better liveview.

Having said that A1's viewfinder is just gorgeous! 0.9x magnification with the whatever high res it has plus 120Hz and fast readout speed. I don't think it can get better. you only need to look into it once and you will be selling your kidney before you know it.

Edited by nandbytes - 20 May 2021 at 19:40
my flickr
A7IV, G100, GM5, G5xii, DJI Air2s
Back to Top
MisterAndrew View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 23 April 2014
Country: United States
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Posts: 63
Post Options Post Options   Quote MisterAndrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2021 at 22:24
I think DP Review's studio images taken with the A7III and A7RIII are a little out of focus and that's why it looks like they have less noise when I select the comp option. The A7RIV and A1 images are tack sharp. So I think the noise in the images taken with the older cameras is just blending into the image and that the actual noise between the cameras at the same resolution is about identical.

They don't have a studio image taken with the A900, but they have one of the A77II and I have that camera and it seems to produce similar noise as the A900. I can see a huge difference between that one and the newer E-mount bodies. So I don't think I could go wrong selecting any of them. The main thing to consider now is that perhaps the A7RV will be released in the near future so should I get the A7RIV now and not worry about it or get one of the less expensive bodies to hold me over until then?

Perhaps the newly updated version of the A7R4 wouldn't go down in value much when the A7RV comes out, but I imagine the A7R2 wouldn't lose much value either since it has already lost most of its original value. Perhaps the A7R3 would be the worst one to buy in terms of value right now since it may drop to the A7R2 level when the A7R5 is released.
Back to Top
nandbytes View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 09 January 2014
Country: United Kingdom
Location: London
Status: Offline
Posts: 3395
Post Options Post Options   Quote nandbytes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2021 at 09:04
Looking at resale value of bodies is my favourite pass time since I change so much

Of course US market will be slightly different to UK market.
I lost £400 on A7RII after 1.75 years which wasn't too bad.
Lost the most on the A7RIII - £750. But A7RIII has since held its price very well the last 1-2 years. I bought it very close to release and sold it after A7RIV was released. I also kept it the longest.
Lost £250 on A7RIV after 1.5 years of owning it which isn't bad at all considering I also bought it very close to release but sold it before there was a replacement.

If and when there is a replacement for A7RIV, I think A7RII and A7RIII will keep their value fairly well. A7RIV is bound to lose some of its value.
Losing £100-200 on a body isn't a big deal IMO, you'd pay many times more than that if you were to rent it for say 6-12 months.
Assuming you won't be going and pre-ordering your A7RV, it will probably be at least be 9 months before you actually will be ordering one anyway.
If I were to buy an A7RIV today I'd expect to lose more like £200-300 instead of £100-200. Still not a bad prospect.
my flickr
A7IV, G100, GM5, G5xii, DJI Air2s
Back to Top
MisterAndrew View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 23 April 2014
Country: United States
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Posts: 63
Post Options Post Options   Quote MisterAndrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2021 at 02:22
I was comparing the specs of the A7R2, A7R3, and A7R4, and I think I would be most happy with the A7R4. I think you're right that it may be a while before there is an A7R5, and it may only be a small incremental upgrade. I don't think Sony has any incentive to offer a camera right now that has some of the A1's features for half the price. So if I buy the A7R4 right now I could keep it for a couple years before I think about upgrading again.
Back to Top
addy landzaat View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 22 April 2006
Country: Netherlands
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Posts: 13349
Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2021 at 10:14
Originally posted by Jonas A-R Jonas A-R wrote:

What I am trying to say: you don’t need an awful lot of DR at low exposures (expected at high ISOs) because of the noise. If you have specular, blown highlights then it is much better to keep the ISO low and raise it when the image is developed from raw. This preserves the DR of the sensor and you will generally not have a noise penalty by raising the ISO when the image is processed (compared to shooting at the higher ISO)
Typically the light level is fixed in a scene. It is good practice to set the exposure first (aperture and shutter speed) to maximize it. The ISO will fall wherever it fits and there is not much that can be done abut it unless you change the DoF or the amount of motion blur.
Ehm? What do you mean by "you don’t need an awful lot of DR at low exposures (expected at high ISOs) because of the noise."? I was not talking of Dynamic Range at low ISO settings at all. Anything over 10 stops is fine. More is always nice, but for me 10 stops is fine. I was talking about DR at high ISO. That was why I was referring to the maximum setting I am fine with. You're having a different discussion then I do, it seems.

Setting the exposure first (aperture and shutter speed) is needed to keep the best DR for your picture.

And then there is this thing: I can remove visible noise, I cannot add dynamic range

Edited by addy landzaat - 22 May 2021 at 10:20
Why not follow me on Instagram? @Addy_101
Back to Top
addy landzaat View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 22 April 2006
Country: Netherlands
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Posts: 13349
Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2021 at 10:18
Originally posted by MisterAndrew MisterAndrew wrote:

I was comparing the specs of the A7R2, A7R3, and A7R4, and I think I would be most happy with the A7R4. I think you're right that it may be a while before there is an A7R5, and it may only be a small incremental upgrade. I don't think Sony has any incentive to offer a camera right now that has some of the A1's features for half the price. So if I buy the A7R4 right now I could keep it for a couple years before I think about upgrading again.
There is some chatter about a A7iv this year, but nothing concrete. I really like my A7r4, it is a well rounded camera, not as well rounded as the A1, but great for most people I think. Even if 60mp is bit large...

Why not follow me on Instagram? @Addy_101
Back to Top
MisterAndrew View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 23 April 2014
Country: United States
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Posts: 63
Post Options Post Options   Quote MisterAndrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2021 at 01:23
I received my A7RIV today. I found it 'open box' from Best Buy at quite a considerable savings and it's in new condition. The LA-EA5 adaptor also arrived in time for me to test some of my A-mount lenses with it. Autofocus, including Eye-AF, work well with the SSM and screw drive lenses I've tested so far. I've only been taking photos of the cat, but I'm loving it so far. It's quite an upgrade coming from the A900, which I still love. The A700 & A77II will probably see even less use now, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to parting with them.
Back to Top
Dyxum main page >  Forum Home > Equipment forums > Camera Talk > E-mount full frame Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.064 seconds.

Monitor calibration strip

Dyxum.com - Home of the alpha system photographer

In memory of Cameron Hill - brettania

Feel free to contact us if needed.