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Wireless Flash F58AM on Maxxum 9

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matthiaspaul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote matthiaspaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 14:07
Originally posted by rovhazman rovhazman wrote:

I can tell you that there are no problem when using Sony F56AM connected to the hotshoe, so I believe the output is fine (although it can be that the PW has smaller range of trigger voltage).

There is no voltage "output" from the camera as far as we only talk about firing a flash.

It is the flash, which will apply a certain trigger voltage level on pin "F1" against ground ("F0").

In the old times, this voltage could be as high as 1000V, however, connecting such a flash to a modern camera's hotshoe would fry the camera. The PC flash port of all Minolta, Konica Minolta and Sony SLRs is designed to withstand 400V DC or AC, whereas the hotshoe is designed to withstand between 5.0 to 6.0V maximum. Therefore the flash's trigger voltage should remain below 4.5V to avoid any damage.

All the camera will do in order to fire a flash is short pins "F1" and "F0". The trigger voltage will immediately drop downto near 0V and this is what will be detected by the flash and trigger it. Originally, the shortage was achieved by a switch contact in the shutter (for example the 9000 AF still featured such a switch), however, today, with rear curtain sync etc. the camera will use a transistor, thyristor or triac to achieve the same effect. While this has some advantages, there are also some subtle differences which can become disadvantages if not taken into account in the design of third-party equipment:

- Depending on the design of the trigger circuit in the camera, this will no longer work independent of the trigger voltage's polarity.

- Depending on the design of the trigger circuit in the camera and the current provided by the flash, the voltage may not drop to 0.0V. Instead, a small voltage level (usually well below 0.7V) will remain on even during the short. Sometimes, this is too much for the flash to detect the short circuit. Some servo triggers will exhibit this problem, but often, they can be modified to work reliable. Camera circuits cannot be modified, but they don't normally exhibit this problem unless the flash provides dangerously high currents (dozens of milliamperes) - such flashes should be ruled out anyway for safety reasons.

- The camera's "outer" trigger transistor/thyristor/triac is always fed by the flash's trigger voltage. If the flash's trigger voltage becomes too low, the semiconductor may work outside of its minimum supply voltage range, so that it won't be able to switch reliably any more, resulting in a "weak" short or no short at all. While this does not happen in conjunction with real flashes (as they have high enough trigger voltages), some third party accessories provide too low trigger voltages. In these cases, it may help to slightly raise the trigger voltage by 0.5V - 1.5V, for example, by adding a 1.5V battery in series.

- Apparently, some low-end cameras will first try to communicate with a flash via the data lines ("F2" and "F3") and simply won't attempt to fire the flash unless they detect a compatible flash. This is why they won't work with 3rd party equipment which just provides the trigger voltage without emulating some kind of dedicated flash. The Dynax 9, of course, is not among this kind of cameras, and it will attempt to trigger whatever may be connected to the hotshoe - even if no compatible flash was detected.

Greetings,

Matthias
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rovhazman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rovhazman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 14:34
Thanks again Matthias for your knowledgable reply! I learned something...

When you wrote that I need to measure the PW trigger voltage I thought you made a mistake and meant camera. Now I know that it is really the flash/PW.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kowloon_chan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 17:22
Thanks for the very detailed explanation, although the Sony's implementation sounds weird. I tried it and the flash fired when i forced the shutter speed above 1/60s. Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote matthiaspaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2010 at 11:30
Originally posted by kowloon_chan kowloon_chan wrote:

Sony's implementation sounds weird. I tried it and the flash fired when i forced the shutter speed above 1/60s. Thanks again.

Hm, perhaps the camera will disable triggering a hotshoe flash when the shutter speed is "approaching" the wireless X-sync speed (and no flash was detected on the hotshoe)? Using (non HSS) flash in conjunction with shorter shutter speeds than the cameras's (wireless) X-sync-speed would ruin the picture, anyway.

Greetings,

Matthias
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minolta4me_kevin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote minolta4me_kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2021 at 14:02
Hi, just joined to ask a very similar question. Apologies for not seeing this first. Just got a Dynax 9 [which has had the "sticky" grip replaced with poly carbon one, brilliant].
My Sony equivalent to Minolta flashes, have a setting for optical or wireless flash triggering [rather than modern Radio flash triggering] and work fine in this mode with my Sony A9 - A7R iii but I've just got a Dynax 9 and was surprised in all those articles that criticise the "pop up flash" on a "professional" camera that no mention is made of the pop up triggering wirelessly other flashes.
A real "professional" feature. However I have no older flashes now and was convinced I could fire the modern ones in the optic flash triggering mode. No luck yet ! Anyone dadt enough to try wireless flash on a vintage film camera this way....      
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2021 at 16:31
Originally posted by minolta4me_kevin minolta4me_kevin wrote:

... I have no older flashes now and was convinced I could fire the modern ones in the optic flash triggering mode. No luck yet ! Anyone dadt enough to try wireless flash on a vintage film camera this way....      

It's true that some recent flashes no longer support the original communication protocol that was used with film cameras. Fortunately, the old Minolta flash models that do work with film cameras are pretty inexpensive.
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote addy landzaat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2021 at 17:13
The Hasselblad H-system camera's also have a pop-up flash for that same reason. I didn't know, but I watched a video by Analog Insights and they mentioned it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote minolta4me_kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2021 at 21:02
OK.... I have taken that advise and bought a 5400HS flash. Just to try this feature, I would ,love to get it to work with the Sony flashes set to the old Minolta protocols for wireless [optical not radio] flash, which should work ?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2021 at 21:53
Originally posted by minolta4me_kevin minolta4me_kevin wrote:

OK.... I have taken that advise and bought a 5400HS flash.

Yes, that supports the old film protocol.

Just to try this feature, I would ,love to get it to work with the Sony flashes set to the old Minolta protocols for wireless [optical not radio] flash, which should work ?

There have been different generations of protocol within the optical wireless system, and I'm pretty sure Sony's flashes abandoned support for film cameras even before the radio protocol was introduced.

The only Sony models I'd consider for that would be the HVL-F36AM and HVL-F56AM because they're essentially identical to the Minolta 3600HS(D) and 5600HS(D), which support both the film protocol and the early digital protocol - so you might as well get the Minoltas if they cost less. Other Sony models would be a guessing game.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2021 at 22:11
Oh, the other thing is that you'll need to mount a flash on those cameras you mentioned to act as an optical controller, and that adds another layer of complexity. Some flash models can work as controllers on film cameras, but not on digital cameras. The 5600HS(D) is like that, and so is the 5400HS.

Edited by sybersitizen - 03 July 2021 at 22:15
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Post Options Post Options   Quote minolta4me_kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2021 at 22:27
Nope - I hope the built in pop up flash can do it's job of triggering at least the 5400HS, in flash ratio mode as well. But also the pop up could possibly trigger Sony flash, if they are set into "old" wireless mode, they all have that....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2021 at 22:59
Originally posted by minolta4me_kevin minolta4me_kevin wrote:

Nope - I hope the built in pop up flash can do it's job of triggering at least the 5400HS, in flash ratio mode as well.

Pop-up flashes will do that, but I only noticed you mention the A9 and A7RIII. What did I miss?

But also the pop up could possibly trigger Sony flash, if they are set into "old" wireless mode, they all have that....

They do not all support the optical film protocol of the Dynax 9, which you are also talking about.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote michelb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2021 at 00:14
My experience is that none of the units whose name ends in RM will work with the original Minolta protocol. Those ending with M or AM do work but the most recent ones need to be positioned in the Control 2 mode (CTRL on the rear LCD) from the custom menu since this mode is the original Minolta protocol.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote minolta4me_kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2021 at 08:08
Thank you ALL contributors. I will carry on trials and report back.
I got all my flashes to work as expected, the 45RM,60RM, 60M with Radio adapter foot. I continued to work through the instructions to set up the older "flash" [optical Morse code] settings as I had another 60M that I bought £30 as it had a broken foot [I a fixed an ordinary flash foot to it, just so it would mount on a tripod] so that was always used as just a remote wireless flash [a bargain].
All those have [or had] the latest Multi Interface foot. MY 20AM ? has the ISO foot I have a Sony adapter for ISO to MI so can mount these on either camera flash type.


Not sure if I added this image correctly but here goes.

All this [I apologise in advance] just so I can demo to my Camera Club, Leek Photographic Club, that the Minolta ethos, of backward compatibility, has reached Sony in quite a few ways..... ;-)   
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