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Wireless Flash F58AM on Maxxum 9

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kowloon_chan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kowloon_chan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Wireless Flash F58AM on Maxxum 9
    Posted: 10 December 2009 at 13:46
Does the Sony F58AM flash work on Maxxum 9 for wireless? I cannot make it to work. Thanks.

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rovhazman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rovhazman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2009 at 16:49
It should work, I think...
If you don't get an answer, I'll try it tonight when I be back home.
I used the Sony F56AM with Maxxum 9 without any problem, but the F56AM is the same system as the Minolta. In the F58AM Sony introduced new wireless protocol. However, it should also work with the old protocol, as far as I know.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rovhazman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 03:15
I checked the F58AM and I also cannot get it work .
I rechecked the F56AM and it works without problem. Also, the F58AM works fine when it is on the camera.

Does someone know how to make it work?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sybersitizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 03:29
If I understand the table on this page correctly, the only film cameras that can control the F58 in wireless mode are the 5, 7, and 60.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kowloon_chan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 10:08
Thanks for the info. Guess I have to live with it then.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote emopunk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2009 at 22:48
Maybe I can find help in this topic as well. I just bought a HVL-F42AM for my A200, and I was wondering if I could use it on my Dynax 505 as well. For what I understand, it is supposed to work on camera, but not wireless, right?
Sony A99 - Sony A200 - Minolta Dynax 505si - Sony 35mm f1.8 - M 50mm f1.7 RS - Tamron SP AF 28-75 F2.8 - Tamron 90mm F2.8 - Sigma 70-200 F2.8 II Macro HSM - Sony HVL-F42AM
 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote matthiaspaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2009 at 12:04
Yep, that's my understanding as well.

Greetings,

Matthias
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kowloon_chan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2009 at 17:55
Now I have a Maxxum 7 and I still can't get the F58AM to work wirelessly with the 7. Could some of you kindly advise? Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote matthiaspaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2009 at 20:23
It will work on the Dynax 7, but only for shutter speeds shorter than the camera's wireless X-sync speed (1/60s for the Dynax 7). This is because the HVL-F58AM no longer supports the Minolta wireless protocol generation 1 (wireless TTL-OTF flash with ratio flash), only protocol generation 2 (P-TTL based wireless HSS flash) and the new Sony protocol generation 3 (P-TTL based wireless flash with ratio flash). The Minolta Dynax 7 was the first camera to support wireless HSS and therefore is the first camera to support protocol generation 2 as well. However, for maximum compatibility with non-HSS flashes and also because wireless HSS is - for obvious technical reasons - P-TTL based and as such less reliable than the original TTL-OTF based wireless protocol, the camera will try hard not to use this new protocol outside the narrow shutter speed range, where TTL-OTF cannot work and this protocol is a hard requirement for high-speed synchronisation.

Unfortunately, DSLRs such as the Dynax 7D don't support TTL-OTF any more (for technical reasons down to the sensor design, which, however, could be overcome with future sensor designs). Therefore DSLRs no longer support the wireless protocol 1 any more at all. And since Sony does not care much about backward compatibility, they consequently dropped support for this protocol in the HVL-F58AM. Except for this tiny missing bit of software in the HVL-F58AM, there are no reasons why the flash could not support wireless protocol 1 any more. If it would, it would work wirelessly with the Dynax 7 outside the HSS shutter speed range, and it would also work with the Dynax 9 wirelessly and other older cameras only supporting wireless protocol 1...

You can, however, use the HVL-F58AM as a cabled flash on the Dynax 9 or Dynax 7 without any problems.

Greetings,

Matthias



Edited by matthiaspaul - 29 December 2009 at 12:39
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rovhazman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 01:52
I learned something else about Maxxum 9 and wireless flash today - it wouldn't trigger the Pocket Wizard when it is connected to the hot shoe (via adapter)
When the PW is connected with the same adapter to the A700 it shoots. I tried to take off and on, turn the PW off, turn the camera off and all the combinations. Nada. It wouldn't work on M9 but it works on A700.

Eventually I connected the PW via the PC port and it works fine.

Is there an explanation for this?

Edited by rovhazman - 02 January 2010 at 23:55
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kowloon_chan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 03:55
I am aware of the shutter speed limit. I have tried 1/60, 1/45, 1/30 on the 7 but it still didn't fire the F58AM. When I press the AEL button(suppose to test fire the flash), there is no response. I tried two 7's with the F58AM and F42AM and got same result. The Maxxum 5 will fire the flash. Are there any settings I may have missed? Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote matthiaspaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 12:13
Originally posted by kowloon_chan kowloon_chan wrote:

I am aware of the shutter speed limit. I have tried 1/60, 1/45, 1/30 on the 7 but it still didn't fire the F58AM.

Of course, not. These shutter speeds are longer than (or equal to) the camera's (wireless) X-sync speed. They would be perfectly fine for TTL-OTF, and therefore for the TTL-OTF based wireless flash protocol generation 1 as well, but not for the P-TTL based wireless flash protocol generations 2 and 3.

The film cameras will try to use a TTL-OTF based metering method for as long as possible, since TTL-OTF works - for technical reasons lying in the very nature of flashes and how to control them - more reliable than P-TTL. This is why even P-TTL capable cameras such as the Dynax 9 and Dynax 7 will utilize pre-flashes only to assist the TTL-OTF metering for a combined P-TTL-OTF metering method, instead of switching to a P-TTL-only metering mode.

However, it is, also for technical reasons, impossible to support TTL-OTF for shutter speeds faster than the camera's X-sync speed - for faster speeds a camera's slit shutter is never fully open and a normal flash, shorter in duration than the shutter's speed, would reach only part of the film's surface. The unexposed areas would remain dark.

This is where a linear flash and HSS come into play. Since no form of TTL-OTF will work for shutter speeds faster than X-sync, the camera will have to switch over to a P-TTL-only flash metering method.

However, since wireless flash was based on TTL-OTF as well, wireless HSS (a new feature introduced with the Dynax 7) required the introduction of a new P-TTL based wireless flash protocol. This new wireless protocol is supported with HSS and HS(D) flashes.

In a perfect world, this new protocol would have been used only in HSS mode, however, when digital cameras showed up, they too could no longer use TTL-OTF, since (conventional) imaging sensors will reflect light in a very different way than film. This is the reason, why the less reliable HSS method is now used for all shutter speeds on DSLRs, whereas it is only used for HSS speeds on film bodies.

If you want to force the Dynax 7 to trigger the HVL-F58AM wirelessly, you will have to use shutter speeds faster than 1/60s, for example 1/90s. You will have to enable HSS in the flash before the camera will allow you to set such speed settings with the flash enabled.
I know, photographically this does not make sense most of the time, that's why I am quite upset about the fact, that Sony removed support for wireless protocol 1 from the HVL-F58AM, and why I think, the HVL-F56AM is still the better flash unless you own a DSLR-A900 or DSLR-A850 (which don't have a built-in flash and require the HVL-F58AM or HVL-F20AM as a wireless controller).

Greetings,

Matthias

Edited by matthiaspaul - 29 December 2009 at 14:49
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Post Options Post Options   Quote matthiaspaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 12:49
Originally posted by rovhazman rovhazman wrote:


Eventually I connected the PW via the PC port and it works fine.

That's what the PC port is designed for, after all... ;-)

Is there an explanation for this?

Can you measure the trigger voltage of your Pocket Wizard (the voltage between "F1" and "F0")? This is just a guess, but it may be a bit too low for the hotshoe trigger circuit in the Dynax 9 to work reliable. Ideally, it should be between 3.0V and 4.0V to work with all cameras. It may or may not work down to about 2V. The trigger voltage must never be higher than 5V. If it is too low, you could try to modify the PW to provide a slightly higher voltage.

Greetings,

Matthias
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rovhazman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 13:15
Thanks Matthias for your reply.

I am not going to modify the PW - the PC port is good enough...

I was just curious about the reason. I am away now and I cannot check the output from the camera. I can tell you that there are no problem when using Sony F56AM connected to the hotshoe, so I believe the output is fine (although it can be that the PW has smaller range of trigger voltage).
I'll make few more tests when I am back home.
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